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But SHOULD we be ditching Firefox for Chrome...?
tantryl 
3/9/08 4:26:53 PM
SuperHero
Immortal


Virt - it's been mentioned and confirmed, Chrome is Open Source.

So... ?

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Waltish 
3/9/08 4:44:24 PM
Hero
Titan


Quote by Girvo
Wait.


Chrome is Open Source I believe. So wouldn't it really be a moot point?


Its releasing code under a permissive BSD style liscence but it contains a plethora of Licences including components under these licenses, MPL, GPL 2.0, and LGPL, as well as other licenses like ICU, MIT, zlib license, and Microsoft Permissive License.

If you want to develop for it you will need to be carefull using some of the code.


The link has more details
http://code.google.com/chromium/terms.html


Edited by Waltish: 3/9/2008 5:25:36 PM

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http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article4472654.ece

Jeruselem 
3/9/08 4:46:20 PM
Guru

I'll wait until they make a final release

See http://blogs.zdnet.com/security/?p=1843

The Google Chrome user-agent shows that Chrome is actually WebKit 525.13 (Safari 3.1), which is an outdated/vulnerable version of that browser.

Apple patched the carpet-bombing issue with Safari v3.1.2.

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The Tick 
3/9/08 4:52:54 PM
Hero
Titan


Firstly, I don't think there will be a mass exodus to Chrome but if there was then Mozilla may need to rethink what their offering the market.

Supporting open source for the sake of open source I believe is not necessarily a good thing. Open source needs to provide more than a free although sub standard alternative that people adopt purely for the sake of principle. If they did this then open source products would never need to strive to offer both a free alternative and a good one.

To your point then, and some people have actually answered your question but not in the direct fashion you wanted - it will come down to functionality in the end.

If Chrome offers something different (eg. small footprint, speed ...) then I believe if Mozilla responds in kind to keep an open source alternative then you have a reason to support open source for the right reasons.

If Chrome delivers something that FF doesn't AND it's an important distinction to you, why would you support something just because it's open source?

As and end user I don't mind paying for something that delivers what I want. I am not that fussed if that money fuels a larger empire if they are doing it right. If there is an open source alternative that ticks off all the boxes then even better and if there is one that comes close, if the compromises are acceptable then I would be inclined to support it.

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neowulf 
3/9/08 5:01:43 PM
Champion

Quote by Virtuoso
Quote by Girvo
This means that to stubbornly throw your hands up and declare, "No! I will not use Chrome because FireFox was there first, and has done a lot",

Sheesh. That is not at all what I said. I said that it's about supporting open source and standards, not about "who did what feature first".

Also:

The premise that "Google won't ever be as evil as Microsoft" needs to be tested against experience.

I remember when people thought "Microsoft won't ever be as evil as IBM". Then look what happened.

Google is becoming one of the most cashed up and powerful companies in the IT industry. We've already seen, wrt the China censorship and the pushing up of advertising rates, that they will behave just as other large companies do, when someone gets betweeen them and a profit.

Edited by Virtuoso: 3/9/2008 4:15:52 PM



To be fair Virt, Google has opened sourced Chrome back to the community.

It really is just the nature of Open source software. Firefox sprung up to address the limitations in IE.

It managed to capture the imagination of the open source community and has done wonderful things to push the browser experience.

However, Chrome is the new kid on the Block. They have the advantage of experience and have addressed a number of shortcomings the other browsers have. In the end, if Chrome is the better product, then there really isn't much to be done.

Should the day come when Google shows it's true colours and turns "evil", then I have no doubt that the open source community will be there to answer the call yet again and provide consumers with an alternative.

In the end, I honestly believe that's what open source is really all about. Offering people the choice.


Edited by neowulf: 3/9/2008 05:50:18 PM

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xidus 
3/9/08 5:27:44 PM
Champion

I can't be bothered changing my browser - firefox does the job fine, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

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neowulf 
3/9/08 5:52:01 PM
Champion

Quote by xidus
I can't be bothered changing my browser - firefox does the job fine, if it ain't broke don't fix it.



Each to their own, but I think Chrome is the browser to watch over the next few months.

We'll see where Google takes it and how Firefox/Microsoft respond.

The interesting side effect of Google opensourcing their browser of course is that the other two can borrow ideas on improving their own products.

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Waltish 
3/9/08 6:10:53 PM
Hero
Titan


I would imagine Google will integrate the cloud in due course... oh wait ...{:)


Edited by Waltish: 3/9/2008 6:13:48 PM

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http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article4472654.ece

spielentwickler 
3/9/08 6:51:45 PM
Guru

Weren't you yourself touting the brilliance of opera a couple of weeks back Virtuoso?

Technically, you've already sold out ;)

I think Chrome is going to be a fad, with a bunch of users sticking with it to ultimately give it a user base, but it's not going to take over firefox OR internet explorer any time soon.

When Google get off their arse and offer a viable OS with oem deals (whether it be commercial or open source), I think Chrome has a good chance of being a powerful contender, based off my initial impressions.

Its strength? Interface design. It's fucking brilliant!

But then, so is Opera's, from some points of view.

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SceptreCore 
3/9/08 7:15:33 PM
Guru

Right now after monitoring Chrome, with also three web pages open and a download, I have gone into task manager, and have discovered that is it is running 5 processes:

1: 8848k
2: 8128k
3: 31536k
4: 6184k
5: 8440k

so it's currently chewing up 63136k... which isn't too bad considering my IE7 with IE Pro installed chews up only 40-50000k. so all in all Im pretty happy with this new little Chrome browser, and it surprisingly runs well for a beta. Google have always delivered a remarkably shiny, piece of software that runs great. (I think I have just come across a bug)

The things most noticeable is it's responsiveness, well set out GUI, and the placement of important options that are used regularly and do not require you to dig through options windows and tabs. Like clearing history. I am yet to try Incognito mode, but I can't wait for the finished product.

So Virtuoso, I don't think that this will affect FireFox at all, after all, all those who run linux will continue to run it, all those who have been running it and running it still will continue to do so. But now more people have an option. As long as Linux is alive.. and it always will, then it will always have to ship with a browser.. hence, FireFox will always have support, and will continue to grow. It's not about supporting open source, it's about enjoying your computing experience all the time, and whatever you use to do that.. that's great.

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Greatest Sayings Of Our Time:
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TheSecret 
3/9/08 7:18:19 PM
Overlord
Quote by Virtuoso
None of the above responses seem to address the issue I raised.

I am saying that, if we all just choose Chrome because it's 'new', or even if it's a bit 'better', we'll actually be undermining Forefox.

By undermining Firefox, we may be undermining the open source and open standards which have benefitted us all greatly in the past 4 years.

Sometimes, you have to look beyond 'what I want now' to 'what will be best long term'.

IMHO.



If I am understanding you correctly, I don't think there is an issue, if anything it is a good thing.

Don't forget, Mozilla is also a corporation.

Both products will be OSS, and share and learn from each other.., together it will show the strengths of OSS, and hopefully have microsoft as the odd one out stanards wise. This can only be a good thing.

It is not undermining FF, but using OSS to undermine IE.


Edited by TheSecret: 3/9/2008 7:19:10 PM

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Part of the inhumanity of the computer is that, once it is
competently programmed and working smoothly, it is completely honest.

spielentwickler 
3/9/08 7:24:15 PM
Guru

Quote by TheSecret
Quote by Virtuoso
None of the above responses seem to address the issue I raised.

I am saying that, if we all just choose Chrome because it's 'new', or even if it's a bit 'better', we'll actually be undermining Forefox.

By undermining Firefox, we may be undermining the open source and open standards which have benefitted us all greatly in the past 4 years.

Sometimes, you have to look beyond 'what I want now' to 'what will be best long term'.

IMHO.



If I am understanding you correctly, I don't think there is an issue, if anything it is a good thing.

Don't forget, Mozilla is also a corporation.

Both products will be OSS, and share and learn from each other.., together it will show the strengths of OSS, and hopefully have microsoft as the odd one out stanards wise. This can only be a good thing.

It is not undermining FF, but using OSS to undermine IE.


Edited by TheSecret: 3/9/2008 7:19:10 PM



Mozilla Corp. is a corporation, but I believe the development of Firefox is controlled by the Mozilla Foundation.

This product is at least as corporate as Safari. It's not embedded as default in an OS, but it would only take a project like gos to do this.

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_kapone_ 
3/9/08 7:35:14 PM
Champion

Quote by Jeruselem
I'll wait until they make a final release

See http://blogs.zdnet.com/security/?p=1843

The Google Chrome user-agent shows that Chrome is actually WebKit 525.13 (Safari 3.1), which is an outdated/vulnerable version of that browser.

Apple patched the carpet-bombing issue with Safari v3.1.2.




From the little I know of the security model of Chrome based off my reading today, this is a non-issue. In fact, it's the security and process model of Chrome that's got me really interested.

The downside is though, that for all it's speed, it still loads ads (which is understandable, they're Google's revenue). But on my 1500/256 connection, having ads under Chrome means that pages are loading the same or slower than Firefox. Plus, I've gotten used to site layouts not being broken up and distorted by ads.

As for ditching Firefox as an issue, competition is a good thing. Chrome has truely raised the bar, and this will result in more developments across all browsers.

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TheSecret 
3/9/08 7:54:55 PM
Overlord
Quote by spielentwickler
Quote by TheSecret
Quote by Virtuoso
None of the above responses seem to address the issue I raised.

I am saying that, if we all just choose Chrome because it's 'new', or even if it's a bit 'better', we'll actually be undermining Forefox.

By undermining Firefox, we may be undermining the open source and open standards which have benefitted us all greatly in the past 4 years.

Sometimes, you have to look beyond 'what I want now' to 'what will be best long term'.

IMHO.



If I am understanding you correctly, I don't think there is an issue, if anything it is a good thing.

Don't forget, Mozilla is also a corporation.

Both products will be OSS, and share and learn from each other.., together it will show the strengths of OSS, and hopefully have microsoft as the odd one out stanards wise. This can only be a good thing.

It is not undermining FF, but using OSS to undermine IE.


Edited by TheSecret: 3/9/2008 7:19:10 PM



Mozilla Corp. is a corporation, but I believe the development of Firefox is controlled by the Mozilla Foundation.

This product is at least as corporate as Safari. It's not embedded as default in an OS, but it would only take a project like gos to do this.



Nope, the development is coordinated directly by Moyilla Corporation.

I think a bigger issue anyway is will google still sponsor firefox?

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Part of the inhumanity of the computer is that, once it is
competently programmed and working smoothly, it is completely honest.

SceptreCore 
3/9/08 8:24:32 PM
Guru

Quote by _kapone_
From the little I know of the security model of Chrome based off my reading today, this is a non-issue. In fact, it's the security and process model of Chrome that's got me really interested.

The downside is though, that for all it's speed, it still loads ads (which is understandable, they're Google's revenue). But on my 1500/256 connection, having ads under Chrome means that pages are loading the same or slower than Firefox. Plus, I've gotten used to site layouts not being broken up and distorted by ads.

As for ditching Firefox as an issue, competition is a good thing. Chrome has truely raised the bar, and this will result in more developments across all browsers.


I don't think you should worry, I have already noticed a speed increase.

-----
Greatest Sayings Of Our Time:
Quote by tantryl
Your mate is what we like to call "a moron".



Waltish 
3/9/08 8:37:12 PM
Hero
Titan


Mozilla Corporation is wholly owned by the Mozilla Foundation and is a a public-benefit, non-profit group .

They and Google are still friends.
----------------------------------------------
From Johns Blog


Thoughts on Chrome & More

Interesting developments in the browser world lately. Between the new beta of IE8 and Google releasing the beta of their new browser (called “Chrome”), not to mention interesting work by the Mozilla team here as well, there’s as much happening as I can ever remember. Let’s start from there: more smart people thinking about ways to make the Web good for normal human beings is good, absolutely. Competition often results in innovation of one sort or another — in the browser you can see that this is true in spades this year, with huge Javascript performance increases, security process advances, and user interface breakthroughs. I’d expect that to continue now that Google has thrown their hat in the ring.

It should come as no real surprise that Google has done something here — their business is the web, and they’ve got clear opinions on how things should be, and smart people thinking about how to make things better. Chrome will be a browser optimized for the things that they see as important, and it’ll be interesting to see how it evolves.

Having said that, it’s worth addressing a couple of questions that folks will no doubt have.

1. How does this affect Mozilla? As much as anything else, it’ll mean there’s another interesting browser that users can choose. With IE, Firefox, Safari, Opera, etc — there’s been competition for a while now, and this increases that. So it means that more than ever, we need to build software that people care about and love. Firefox is good now, and will keep on getting better.

2. What does this mean for Mozilla’s relationship with Google? Mozilla and Google have always been different organizations, with different missions, reasons for existing, and ways of doing things. I think both organizations have done much over the last few years to improve and open the Web, and we’ve had very good collaborations that include the technical, product, and financial. On the technical side of things, we’ve collaborated most recently on Breakpad, the system we use for crash reports — stuff like that will continue. On the product front, we’ve worked with them to implement best-in-class anti-phishing and anti-malware that we’ve built into Firefox, and looks like they’re building into Chrome. On the financial front, as has been reported lately, we’ve just renewed our economic arrangement with them through November 2011, which means a lot for our ability to continue to invest in Firefox and in new things like mobile and services.

So all those aligned efforts should continue. And similarly, the parts where we’re different, with different missions, will continue to be separate. Mozilla’s mission is to keep the Web open and participatory — so, uniquely in this market, we’re a public-benefit, non-profit group (Mozilla Corporation is wholly owned by the Mozilla Foundation) with no other agenda or profit motive at all. We’ll continue to be that way, we’ll continue to develop our products & technology in an open, community-based, collaborative way.

With that backdrop, it’ll be interesting to see what happens over the coming months and years. I personally think Firefox 3 is an incredibly great browser — the best anywhere — and we’re seeing millions of people start using it every month. It’s based on technology that shows incredible compatibility across the broad web — technology that’s been tweaked and improved over a period of years.

And we’ve got a truckload of great stuff queued up for Firefox 3.1 and beyond — things like open video and an amazing next-generation Javascript engine (TraceMonkey) for 3.1, to name a couple. And beyond that, lots of breakthroughs like Weave, Ubiquity, and Firefox Mobile. And even more that are unpredictable — the strength of Mozilla has always come from the community that’s built it, from core code to the thousands of extensions that are available for Firefox.

So even in a more competitive environment than ever, I’m very optimistic about the future of Mozilla and the future of the open Web.
-----------------------------------
There are hyper-links in the article on the page linked.
http://john.jubjubs.net/2008/09/01/thoughts-on-chrome-more/


Edited by Waltish: 3/9/2008 08:40:34 PM

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http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article4472654.ece

Slace 
3/9/08 8:52:12 PM
Hero
Titan


I've put my thoughts on my blog - http://www.aaron-powell.com/blog.aspx?id=1226

Long story short, I'm feeling very meh over it. Nothing that I haven't seen before.

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What's playing? http://www.last.fm/user/slace/
Blog - http://www.aaron-powell.com
Virtuoso 
3/9/08 8:57:52 PM
SuperHero
Resident alien


Some good responses above, thanks.

To me, when a large Corporation creates an app, some elements of which are covered by licences, and then declares it 'open source', that's a little different to what Mozilla have done.

But I accept there are many similarities.


Quote by spielentwickler
Weren't you yourself touting the brilliance of opera a couple of weeks back Virtuoso?

No, I've not used it, nor have I ever commented on it.

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I came. I saw. I did not concur.

Waltish 
3/9/08 9:10:29 PM
Hero
Titan


Quote by Virtuoso
Some good responses above, thanks.

To me, when a large Corporation creates an app, some elements of which are covered by licences, and then declares it 'open source', that's a little different to what Mozilla have done.

But I accept there are many similarities.


Quote by spielentwickler
Weren't you yourself touting the brilliance of opera a couple of weeks back Virtuoso?

No, I've not used it, nor have I ever commented on it.




Yah ... in this case most of the risk if there is any is for the devs, particularly if they want to distribute any derivative code, it is an alphabet soup of code and licences {:)


Edited by Waltish: 3/9/2008 9:13:08 PM

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http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article4472654.ece

B82R3S 
3/9/08 10:52:15 PM
Titan

i really like it, nice and minimal but still works.

Ditching ff for it now cause ff has crashed randomly a few times in the last weeks so ill give chrome a chance :P

I was also reading in a security newsletter (the one at the top of atomic) that chrome has a sandbox enviroment for each tab as seperate processes or something, so instead of the whole shebangabang getting lagged only one tab does. Also has a security benefit cause a compromised something cant do something or otehr. lol

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