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Evils of frames
johnsee 
28/4/08 8:05:58 PM
Mod
SuperHero

Immortal


Meta Tags?

You realise they're more or less ignored by search engines these days...

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Quote by Mac Dude
I love the smell of napalm in the Green Room.
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.:Cyb3rGlitch:. 
28/4/08 8:51:17 PM
Titan

Listen to him! These standards are just pure awesome! He knows all!

http://nicephotog-jvm.net/

All it needs is Rick Astley's 'Never Gonna Give You Up' to add that hint of class.



;)

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Cyb3rGlitch Tutorials: http://www.cyb3rglitch.com/
Tutorials for the aspiring beginner.

superfireydave 
28/4/08 8:52:21 PM
Titan

Standards; as in a page will validate according to its specification (eg: will validate as xHTML 1.1), will be marked up semantically correct, and will meet accessibility guidelines.

It has nothing to do with visual appeal, but everything to do with making sure the page is free of errors, functions properly, and is friendly to almost everyone - including those who are disabled.

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Mreow?

GTAV6 
28/4/08 10:18:19 PM
Hero
Titan


as a matter of idle curiosity, i ran the source for http://nicephotog-jvm.net/ through the w3c validator, but i changed the doctype from html 4.01 to xhtml 1.1 - and it produced 309 errors... if you ask me, coding to xhtml 1.0/1.1 is far cleaner and more efficient (in terms of both code and time), with considerably less likelyhood of error, than html 4.01! if that site was entirely hand-coded, your fingers must've fallen off long before you got halfway through.

i certainly have to applaud the massive effort behind your work :o)

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+++ out of cheese error +++ melon melon melon +++ redo from start +++

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://www.thexman.net.nz/

nicephotog-jvm.net 
29/4/08 10:49:39 AM
Master

"...4.01 to xhtml 1.1 - and it produced 309 errors... if you ask me, coding to xhtml 1.0/1.1..."

Actually here, i don't like to pay the point,but, XHTML is effectively
the standard preferred by the w3c since around N6 IE5.5 - 6.

Its also a responsibility to transfer to it.

As of Web 3.0 emerging i say my site is out of standard date for the
w3c preference, but it is technically legal backward compatibally.

NB:Did you notice when you run my XHTML page through the w3c validator
the number of errors E.G. ZERO/NONE

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ERROR @ [ ForumReply.DLL ]
Line 983395876948
[ CyborgLoop.DLL ] not loaded
ERROR #232 (0x85100084) Fatal Exception
program C:\progra~1\nicephotoganswers\bin\nicm.exe

superfireydave 
29/4/08 12:13:24 PM
Titan

That doesn't mean it's standards compliant though which is the point I've been trying to get across.

Web 2.0, web 3.0 and all those sort of buzzwords don't mean anything. They're simply words coined by a guy who also happens to sell books and run conferences on the topic.

Web standards and accessibility however DO and THAT'S why you shouldn't use frames.

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Mreow?

GTAV6 
29/4/08 2:49:13 PM
Hero
Titan


Quote by nicephotog-jvm.net
NB:Did you notice when you run my XHTML page through the w3c validator
the number of errors E.G. ZERO/NONE


i did indeed. another laudable effort, considering the excessive amount of data involved.

but, as dave says, it doesn't mean that you're achieving the current standards. sure, you meeting the old requirements for an almost out-moded form of mark up, but they are no longer fully applicable to modern web design- and they certainly make no concession to accessibilty, seo, ease of maintainence, efficient loading, or many other of the issues that need to be addressed in today's websites.


Edited by GTAV6: 29/4/2008 02:57:26 PM

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+++ out of cheese error +++ melon melon melon +++ redo from start +++

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://www.thexman.net.nz/

moofactory 
29/4/08 10:58:22 PM
Titan

Quote by .:Cyb3rGlitch:.
Listen to him! These standards are just pure awesome! He knows all!

http://nicephotog-jvm.net/

All it needs is Rick Astley's 'Never Gonna Give You Up' to add that hint of class.



OMG.. I just got kicked back to 1995.
Please tell me this is a spoof site.
it just has all kinds of wrong written all over it.
Please go here and be inspired.

http://www.csszengarden.com


Scythe:

DON'T use frames.. I don't care if its 1 page.. or 100. use css. Im starting to become a best practice Nazi so watch out guys. :P


nicephotog-jvm.net:

Your sites look horrid, how can you think anyone could take you seriously on website advice with sites looking like that.

We are doing css advanced training here at work right now with a dev that was on the beta testing team for adobe.

he saw ur site and asked me to book mark it for him for future reference.
Basicly to show "not what to do"

Honestly, im confised by your content vs the site it sits on, the content gives web advice.. yet. the sites contradict everything your trying to offer as good advice.


Edited by moofactory: 30/4/2008 12:59:49 PM

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Quote by Ben Mansill
I've always waited for the day here when we talk about anal sex with animated Disney lions.

nicephotog-jvm.net 
1/5/08 11:31:11 PM
Master

=========

W3C CSS Validator results for http://www.nicephotog-jvm.net/index.html (CSS level 2.1)
Congratulations! No Error Found.

This document validates as CSS level 2.1 !
=========

This Page Is Valid HTML 4.01 Transitional!
Result: Passed validation
Address: http://www.nicephotog-jvm.net/
Encoding: utf-8
Doctype: HTML 4.01 Transitional
Root Element: HTML

=========

I do not give you the point of any of that,
It certainly is not
particularly conventional as a site, but not particularly anybodies
business to its being other than my own. Your better thinking of it as
a blend of personal and business(because it is). Its designed to operate
not as a perfect uncriticsisable , bland , attempt at mediocrity of
performance of public moral duty, of requires no originality and no
contention of thought. For art i suppose alike surreal, i do not
subscribe to perversely oversimplified insinuative representations
that are designed to achieve more provocative illicit thought at the same at the level, of only the corrupt or brainlessly stupid(something
that would simply see that that way) being able to see any meaning or
gain the point conveyed.

You infer that a site i would create for someone else would contain
problems of ethics to public conduct, That's not how to make any
money(neither really is web unless you actually have a foot in
the door to the job) from people, to not do what they want done


Edited by nicephotog-jvm.net: 1/5/2008 11:37:45 PM

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ERROR @ [ ForumReply.DLL ]
Line 983395876948
[ CyborgLoop.DLL ] not loaded
ERROR #232 (0x85100084) Fatal Exception
program C:\progra~1\nicephotoganswers\bin\nicm.exe

superfireydave 
2/5/08 12:45:35 AM
Titan

I think these arguements are stemming from your post where you say it's "okay" to use frames. And your site was being used as an example (because you linked it).

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Mreow?

nicephotog-jvm.net 
2/5/08 3:12:21 PM
Master

I think your ignoring the international internet coding specification
bodies whom both advocate therequirement of "frames" existence, but
also have given them their own section of specification.

I also think that just like Microsofts' programmers, when it gets to
building special site dynamic help indexes, using frames is a good idea,
not a mistake.

I also believe valid CSS is the way to commit CSS.

-----
ERROR @ [ ForumReply.DLL ]
Line 983395876948
[ CyborgLoop.DLL ] not loaded
ERROR #232 (0x85100084) Fatal Exception
program C:\progra~1\nicephotoganswers\bin\nicm.exe

gummybear 
2/5/08 4:11:58 PM
Champion

haven't read much into the thread but thought i'd add my 2 cents.

just started learning css and all i can say is. wow. fkn wow.

the s**t you can do with CSS certainly outweighs any sort of hesitation you might have in having to learn a new style of scripting.

flexible, fast, and most of all BEAUTIFUL.

haha i'm a full on css fanboy now. lolz

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superfireydave 
3/5/08 11:51:25 AM
Titan

Quote by nicephotog-jvm.net
I think your ignoring the international internet coding specification
bodies whom both advocate therequirement of "frames" existence, but
also have given them their own section of specification.

I also think that just like Microsofts' programmers, when it gets to
building special site dynamic help indexes, using frames is a good idea,
not a mistake.

I also believe valid CSS is the way to commit CSS.


No, frames are *supported* that doesn't mean that in 99% of cases they are a valid semantically correct way to mark up accessible content.

I couldn't give two shits if you think they're a good idea because they exist. I *know* they're not a good idea for all of the reason I've already presented.

While I respect your opinion: frames are evil and shouldn't be used except for some very rare cases.

edit: It's like goto commands in most programming languages. They exist, but just because they exist does not mean you should use them.


Edited by superfireydave: 3/5/2008 11:52:14 AM

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Mreow?

nicephotog-jvm.net 
3/5/08 5:48:17 PM
Master

Alright, then surf using helpindexB.html in the site (like i said for no-frames), it is an option.

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ERROR @ [ ForumReply.DLL ]
Line 983395876948
[ CyborgLoop.DLL ] not loaded
ERROR #232 (0x85100084) Fatal Exception
program C:\progra~1\nicephotoganswers\bin\nicm.exe

superfireydave 
3/5/08 5:55:52 PM
Titan

Which is all well and good, but frames shouldn't be used in the first place which is the whole point of almost everyones comments in this thread and why we've told the OP that it's a bad idea to use frames.
*sigh*

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Mreow?

johnsee 
4/5/08 10:28:57 PM
Mod
SuperHero

Immortal


Web4.0 > Web 3.0

-----
Quote by Mac Dude
I love the smell of napalm in the Green Room.
------

superfireydave 
4/5/08 10:45:18 PM
Titan

Quote by johnsee
Web4.0 > Web 3.0


You can DIAF, along with the guys that coined that ridiculous term.

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Mreow?

Pedro~ 
25/6/08 10:52:27 AM
Initiate
i use frames and i'm not afraid...

lots of haters that think they know, they want me to change, i tell them NO!! frames forever.....

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Don't hate the playa.
http://www.taxi583.com

moofactory 
3/7/08 12:46:28 PM
Titan

Quote by Pedro~
i use frames and i'm not afraid...

lots of haters that think they know, they want me to change, i tell them NO!! frames forever.....



How do you get around the following issues?

http://apptools.com/rants/framesevil.php

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http://www.spore.com/sporepedia#qry=usr-moofactory

SquallStrife 
4/7/08 11:14:44 AM
Titan

If you really cared about **all** your users, your HTML would look like this:

<html>
<head>
<title>My prices</title>
</head>
<body>
<h1>This is a heading</h1>
<p>This is some text</p>
</body>
</html>

Renders fine in any browser, even lynx.


Edited by SquallStrife: 7/7/2008 3:40:43 PM

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Q6600 @ 3.6GHz | 8800GTS | XP x64 | Vista HP x64 | OSX 10.5.2

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