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Evils of frames
Master_Scythe 
23/4/08 11:09:36 AM
Titan

I learnt long ago: use CSS and dont use frames.

However im making a page (for myself this is) that will just have a top-bar and a main window... and maybe about 5 pages (with no outside links to lock a frame on people).

As such, I thoguht "you know... using a border=0, whats the difference?"

Convince me to work harder on this, or do you agree.

Simple 5 page site, no external links, not enough to warrant a full CSS, Im actually liking the frame simplicity again.

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4200+X2 939, ASUS A8N-SLI-D, Ati HD3850, 1gb,1tb total HDD, 109 DVD, LG DVD-rom.
Quote by Girvo
I've got a wicked tiny one that is ridiculously sensitive.



GTAV6 
23/4/08 1:32:31 PM
Hero
Titan


/cracks whip.



Quote by Master_Scythe
... not enough to warrant a full CSS, ...


how so? personally, i would consider even a single page should warrant css- the ideal being, if you've coded your xhtml really well, you have total control of it via the css.
in any case, i think frames are a real pain, both to use and to maintain- let alone avoiding them for all the usual standards/accessibilty compliance and seo-unfriendly issues.

however, i guess it all really boils down to what you have in mind for the end result.

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+++ out of cheese error +++ melon melon melon +++ redo from start +++

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http://www.thexman.net.nz/

Girvo 
23/4/08 1:50:34 PM
Immortal

Accessiblity. Try and use that shit on a mobile.

Sure, people who use it on a mobile/with a screenreader/etc. are a small tiny percentage. But I dislike leaving them out.

And I totally love the feeling of "This site is xHTML 1.0 compliant" in green writing ;)

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[No Heroes] is the artistic antithesis of that sinking world; a thorn in the side of their beast. It's for those who move mountains one day at a time. It's for those who truly understand sacrifice. In our world of enemies, we will walk alone...

Master_Scythe 
23/4/08 2:24:57 PM
Titan

this is true. *clicks the convert from HTML to xhtml button*

I love that button.

anyway..... Ive made the pages now. all thats left to do is decide if i rename home.htm to index.htm and use a CSS\xhtml bar, or if I just make a new index file with a frame or 2.....

*stares at the wall*
You see, atm in quite sick... as such, coding a CSS doesnt sound tempting when i can just type frame= and im done...

but then again, the professionalism really doesnt shine through on frames.

But for most end users they wont no the difference as long as i hide the border....

wonder if i can google up a pre-made page that i can dump my own links into.

EDIT: for now, for the reason that i can hardly no throw up, ive gonr for frames.

simple, 2 minutes to do, and i can rest.

it may be CSS'd later.


Edited by Master_Scythe: 23/4/2008 02:28:33 PM

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4200+X2 939, ASUS A8N-SLI-D, Ati HD3850, 1gb,1tb total HDD, 109 DVD, LG DVD-rom.
Quote by Girvo
I've got a wicked tiny one that is ridiculously sensitive.



Sneddo 
23/4/08 3:40:00 PM
Hero
Immortal


This thread makes me sad :(

Seriously, for the few minutes difference, why would you use frames? If you have to do the markup for each frame anyway, it makes absolutely no sense. Then add a minute or two to either copy and paste the code into each file, or modify your template, and you are done.

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Master_Scythe 
23/4/08 4:28:51 PM
Titan

its OK sneddo *hugs*

Its just for my own local PC business, it'll probably never be updated because.... hey... its just outlining my services and fees.

It looks fine with frames and no border, I cant even tell the difference.

being a small site it'll never be viewed by a mobile.

and if my logs indicate it has been, then ill update.

although its been drummed into me from the word go "NEVER USE FRAMES!" i actually bothered to look up the pros and cons, and really theres nothing wrong with them. about the only down sides are printing difficulties and getting locked in if you follow an outside link.

both of which people shouldnt be doing really.....

its done. it was simple. I just wanna go home and sleep. damn fever.

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4200+X2 939, ASUS A8N-SLI-D, Ati HD3850, 1gb,1tb total HDD, 109 DVD, LG DVD-rom.
Quote by Girvo
I've got a wicked tiny one that is ridiculously sensitive.



superfireydave 
23/4/08 5:52:55 PM
Titan

You could use some really simple PHP to manage your navigation simple and effectively.

I've yet to see someone design something in frames that needed to be done in frames.

And if they have done that, and it did need to be done in frames, usually it usually looks horrible =/

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Mreow?

johnsee 
23/4/08 8:42:25 PM
Mod
SuperHero

Immortal


I can only think of one example that uses frames that I agree with... and that's WHM (the admin side of cPanel)

It has literally a hundred links down the left hand side... and it'd be a pain if it reloaded on every page.

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Quote by Mac Dude
I love the smell of napalm in the Green Room.
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moofactory 
24/4/08 1:30:28 PM
Titan

just html based includes.

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I've always waited for the day here when we talk about anal sex with animated Disney lions.

nicephotog-jvm.net 
27/4/08 7:55:02 PM
Disciple

Thats not how you determine if you should use a frameset.
What framesets are for are to separate content thats' manipulation
requires a difference and thats page could change while the other
remains(to be oversimplistic). Framesets are about public internet
for the most.
When a user sets up their machine for public internet they attempt to
(or shouls at least attempt to) set up their browser as an absolute
SLUT!!! that will take anything in any position publically. An intranet
on the other hand is something you wrangle with the users and boss for
their desired outcome by the "allowed services and design collaboration".
A perfect example of using framesets is on my site at
http://www.nicephotog-jvm.net/helpindex.html
x-browser x-platform

One of the attributes of "body" tag is whether it is a frameset.
Take a look in the html4.01 specs for the attribute.

Its a content manipulation problem about serving the user.

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ERROR #232 (0x85100084) Fatal Exception
program C:\progra~1\nicephotoganswers\bin\nicm.exe

johnsee 
27/4/08 9:21:05 PM
Mod
SuperHero

Immortal


nicephoto... you never cease to amaze me with your ability to simplistically explain the most complicated subects...

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Quote by Mac Dude
I love the smell of napalm in the Green Room.
------

superfireydave 
27/4/08 10:27:53 PM
Titan

After looking that the above site, I feel like I need to reiterate.
Quote by superfireydave
I've yet to see someone design something in frames that needed to be done in frames.

And if they have done that, and it did need to be done in frames, usually it usually looks horrible =/

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Mreow?

GTAV6 
28/4/08 10:55:31 AM
Hero
Titan


Quote by nicephotog-jvm.net
A perfect example of using framesets ...


c'mon, there's no such thing in this day and age.


Quote by nicephotog-jvm.net
Take a look in the html4.01 ...


does anyone still use that? in a serious/professional situation, i mean.

both frames and html 4.01 are like using a horse and cart when everyone else has a motorcar...




Quote by johnsee
nicephoto... you never cease to amaze me with your ability to simplistically explain the most complicated subects...


+1!








Edited by GTAV6: 28/4/2008 10:56:42 AM

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+++ out of cheese error +++ melon melon melon +++ redo from start +++

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://www.thexman.net.nz/

nicephotog-jvm.net 
28/4/08 3:48:42 PM
Disciple

Q: GTAV6 "...both frames and html 4.01 are like using a horse and cart when everyone else has a motorcar..."

Tell that to the developers of XHTML specs at www3c.org, since they
included specified frameset DTD's in XHTML.
As much take a look at the body tag and the attribute to nominate it
a Frame(set).

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Line 983395876948
[ CyborgLoop.DLL ] not loaded
ERROR #232 (0x85100084) Fatal Exception
program C:\progra~1\nicephotoganswers\bin\nicm.exe

GTAV6 
28/4/08 4:57:09 PM
Hero
Titan


i think you're confusing frameset with framework, nicephotog :o)

yes, html 4.01 is what xhtml grew from. but then, the motorcar evolved from the horse and cart, too... it's all the same concept. a horse and cart will get you where you need to go, but not anywhere near as efficiently as a car.
once upon a time, html 4.01 and frames were the only method available to build websites- but they have since been surpassed in every aspect, even though the foundations are still essentially the same.



oh, and by the way, that link to your site throws up a security warning; your certificate doesn't match the host name. i suspect there's a self-inflicted problem with your back end.

actually, speaking of your back end, you should use it for what nature intended: which is sitting on the toilet- not posting on the forum...

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+++ out of cheese error +++ melon melon melon +++ redo from start +++

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://www.thexman.net.nz/

nicephotog-jvm.net 
28/4/08 5:31:21 PM
Master

For his purposes, i say "work harder on this", because frames are for
high density content separation and *SP navigational purposes of
content presentation aspects.

As for GTAV6 , learn HTML4.01 and XHTML XML/XSLT and HTML5 for
web sites and stop ripping off your customers(if you have any).

Note: i have had over 400 downloads in the last 6 months of one
of my freeware scripts.

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ERROR @ [ ForumReply.DLL ]
Line 983395876948
[ CyborgLoop.DLL ] not loaded
ERROR #232 (0x85100084) Fatal Exception
program C:\progra~1\nicephotoganswers\bin\nicm.exe

GTAV6 
28/4/08 5:41:35 PM
Hero
Titan


:o)

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+++ out of cheese error +++ melon melon melon +++ redo from start +++

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://www.thexman.net.nz/

superfireydave 
28/4/08 5:42:08 PM
Titan

Personally, I think frames are disgusting and should be avoided at all costs.

You seem to be very concerned with specifications nicephotog, but what about standards? Those are just as important as meeting a specification outlined by the w3c.

Frames hinder usability in almost all cases, and certainly present problems with accessibility in addition to looking just plain ew.

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Mreow?

nicephotog-jvm.net 
28/4/08 7:42:49 PM
Master

standards? You actually mean visual appeal, aesthetics e.t.c. !?

I do like to re state that my use at the url i gave in my site is
about the only use frames have(the other one is a particular
problem with upload forms).

He just needs to templatise the pages and keep a content section,
and perhaps for editing SEO purposes make the meta tag areas more
obvious.

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ERROR @ [ ForumReply.DLL ]
Line 983395876948
[ CyborgLoop.DLL ] not loaded
ERROR #232 (0x85100084) Fatal Exception
program C:\progra~1\nicephotoganswers\bin\nicm.exe

Girvo 
28/4/08 7:48:12 PM
Immortal

Standards as in, xHTML 1.0 Strict.

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[No Heroes] is the artistic antithesis of that sinking world; a thorn in the side of their beast. It's for those who move mountains one day at a time. It's for those who truly understand sacrifice. In our world of enemies, we will walk alone...

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