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iPhone Criticisms
hill60606 
8/9/08 9:35:11 AM
Immortal

Quote by Linux_Inside V2
I'd love to see some browser competition on the iPhone too, I'd love to see what Opera could do to compete with MobileSafari



So would I actually, having used it on various phones over several years.

All you'd really have to do is run Safari through Operas's servers like Opera Mini does.

I don't think Opera would be into that unless they could pick up advertising revenue.

-----
A decade of John Howard has left a country of timidity, fear and shame


His power resided in his ability to speak directly and powerfully to the negativity at the core of the Australian soul.

The Tick 
8/9/08 9:45:21 AM
Hero
Titan


Quote by TheSecret
Tick,

The iPhone definitely does have more communication functionality than a basic phone, 3G stuff mainly, but still does not have the basic stuff. Compare it to any other smartphone and it starts to miss out.



No it doesn't. Take a phone and offer a comparison or stop claiming this.


Please, what avenues of communication do few phones apart from the iPhone support? I really honestly don't know, unless you mean something like the app store or mobile me, which is irrelevant.



How it is irrelevant? If mobileme as an extension to the iPhone offers a level of connectivity, synchonisation and communication avenues that no other phone seems to posses how can you just deem it irrelevant. It is tied in with the iPhone and is a core level of functionality. I realise you don't understand this.


You are basing everything I say around MMS, when this is only one of the things I mentioned above. Have a look at the feature set for the Nokia E51, and tell me what the iPhone can do that it can't, and then what it can't do that the E51 can. I have seen the E51 for between $30 and $70.



Sorry, the only thing I can see that the iPhone lacks that the E51 has is MMS.

If I was to start picking apart the E51 then I would start with the fact there is no qwerty keyboard or equivalent. That is important for a device where you are typing alot of email from. Couple that with web applications that require text input (facebook, Atomicmpc etc ...) and you start to see where the E51 lets you down with this one problem.

Screen size is another. The usefulness of a larger screen coupled with a brilliant resize feature makes the iPhone all the more useful where the E51 is let down.

A list of features on a website does not necessarily mean the device is usable.


I am happy to see the iPhone as decent, but when it continues to make the mistake of not including basic communication functionality..that has been present in phones for years, that speaks for itself. I dont't just mean MMS, however I think that is a glaring ommision.



The problem is, I cannot see what (apart from MMS) the iPhone lacks in the way of basic communication functionality. You keep saying it does but what is it exactly?

Your list on page one does not include any other bar MMS.

Your critcisms about lack of flash, lack of voice dialing etc ... do not come into the catagory of communication.

So long as you keep dismissing functionality of this phone as "irrelevant" all your doing is tailoring the argument to your way of thinking.

There is no way in a million years I would use the Nokia E51 as a tool for mobile email. The keyboard alone fails it UNLESS all your doing is reading email in which case it would be fine (although the website is rather ambigous about exchange support - no idea if it handles calendars and address book syncing).

As far as I can still see you have summed up your personal opinion on the phone and it's not right for you. That is all this thread has proved. It's a shame your dismissive of advantages the iPhone brings without understanding them. It's a shame that you also look at white paper specifications without applying them to real world usage. Lastly, it's a shame you can't accept that MMS is not a basic requirement.

Next thing you know you will start citing the lack of push to talk or IRDA support as another reason a phone fails as a basic communication device.




Edited by The Tick: 8/9/2008 9:47:25 AM


Edited by The Tick: 8/9/2008 9:47:55 AM

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Quote by plebsmacker
I don't care who makes what, I just want more toys.



Girvo 
8/9/08 11:48:31 AM
Immortal

Quote by hill60606
Quote by Girvo
Quote by TheSecret
Why are you staunchly against software patents? I would say they are mainly a negative thing, but certain cases call for them. I think the term needs to be defined before it can be abolished or accepted.



I'm actually mostly against the ideas of patents in general. They do have their use however, but they are abused far too much.

Software patents... well, I dislike the fact that they can, and are used to stifle competition. As a consumer, I like competition.



The thing is anyone can get the Apple SDK, design an app and get paid by selling it through iTunes, there are quite a few small developers making money this way.

If I think of anything else I'll record it as a voicenote on my iPhone using iRecorder which cost $1.19 from here:-

http://www.simpletouchsoftware.com/SimpleTouch/SimpleTouch_Software.html

An example of one guy getting his products to market.




Weren't you talking about piracy a second ago?

-----
Groovy!

lunchbox1988 
8/9/08 1:35:52 PM
Titan

Honestly, I saw the iphone as a big fat gimmick when it was first out, and when re-released in 3G flavour.

I had a play with one for a few hours...

... I still see it as a gimmick, but it is a good one.

I like the feel of it, despite having the surface area of a small moon, it doesn't feel horrible to have in your pocket.

It is pretty, my is it pretty, it is a big shiny piece of beauty, then you touch it...

Easily smudged and size aside, it is still a great phone, and fun to use, I prefer windows mobile, but as far as a personal phone goes, you couldn't ask for anything more iExciting.

-----
Al Gore - Finally, I get to save the Earth with deadly lasers instead of deadly slideshows!
Takoma -
I don't mind sigs, as long as we don't end up with image sigs, and provided TinBane keeps quoting me in his :P

thesorehead 
8/9/08 2:17:00 PM
Guru

Quote by Girvo
Quote by hill60606
Quote by Girvo
Quote by TheSecret
Why are you staunchly against software patents? I would say they are mainly a negative thing, but certain cases call for them. I think the term needs to be defined before it can be abolished or accepted.



I'm actually mostly against the ideas of patents in general. They do have their use however, but they are abused far too much.

Software patents... well, I dislike the fact that they can, and are used to stifle competition. As a consumer, I like competition.



The thing is anyone can get the Apple SDK, design an app and get paid by selling it through iTunes, there are quite a few small developers making money this way.

If I think of anything else I'll record it as a voicenote on my iPhone using iRecorder which cost $1.19 from here:-

http://www.simpletouchsoftware.com/SimpleTouch/SimpleTouch_Software.html

An example of one guy getting his products to market.




Weren't you talking about piracy a second ago?



Did you even click on the link?

For the click-imparied, it goes to the website for the creators of the software, which contains links that point to the App Store - the only way to get the software is through iTunes or iPhone.

-----
"Be Excellent to each other" - Bill and Ted
- - - Don't feed the Trolls!! - - -
"Consoles are toys. $250 is the most I will pay for a toy." - thesorehead

Girvo 
8/9/08 3:11:13 PM
Immortal

Yes I clicked on the link, Mr-I-Totally-Missed-The-Point.

Everyone talks about using the App Store to protect IP, yeah? This means that if I wanted to make a similar app to the one posted and release it for free... well, I can't, because that would infringe on their IP.

I dislike that, as it means there cannot be room for competition.

His link was of no relevance whatsoever to my original point.

-----
Groovy!

thesorehead 
8/9/08 3:49:07 PM
Guru

... x_x ...

I thought that there were free Apps in the App Store? Surely there would be a number of different Apps that do similar things? I mean I saw an app that turns the thing into a fake "beer glass" using the accelerometer - you're saying that because they got in first whoever made that app and put it up is the only person who will be permitted to use the accelerometer in that way?

If true, it's not a good thing.

My support for the App Store is based on quality control (so there's less of the crap and malware you find for Symbian devices) and a greater degree of control for the developer. This includes the ability to release software for free, if that's what they want.

The App Store ought to be a repository (as we see with Linux repos) where the developer can be sure that anyone with an iPhone can reach their product and the price that they choose (including for free), anyone with an iPhone can be sure they're not missing out just because they don't spend all day trawling forums for an elusive App, and any problems with IP can be swiftly dealt with because a program that blatantly rips off form and function from another can't be hidden. It will have to add something substantial to the experience to be placed in the Store.


That's the way I'd run the Store anyway. I don't know what Apple's doing, but I do seem to remember that there are free apps available. Provided your work meets quality and stability guidelines, there's no reason to believe it wouldn't be included, is there?

EDIT: not sure I put my point across properly, so here's the abridged version -

IP is property. If you have the exact same idea at the same time as someone else, and they beat you to the punch when it comes to implementation, the invention is treated as theirs to exploit.

If your idea is substantially different, then that substantially different idea will be treated as yours.

The App Store ought to be a system that ensures Apps are not going to crash or brick iPhones, and that the ideas presented therein are different enough to actually add to the library rather than being just another Snake clone.

The way I would run the Store (as outlined above) is consistent with this. I don't know how the system actually works, but from what little I've heard it's shaping up to be pretty similar.


Edited by thesorehead: 8/9/2008 3:53:53 PM

-----
"Be Excellent to each other" - Bill and Ted
- - - Don't feed the Trolls!! - - -
"Consoles are toys. $250 is the most I will pay for a toy." - thesorehead

Girvo 
8/9/08 3:55:03 PM
Immortal

It's not true, I hope. But that was the point I've seen many people make, and as you've pointed out, it's not true. If it was, it would be dangerous.


I like the App Store idea, I really do.

I just don't like being accused of being a pirate because I like the way Windows Mobile does it, thankyouverymuch.

:)


EDIT:

Also, I'm sick of this shit about "less crap". Are you telling me a beer simluator isn't crap?

To be honest, I've not used one application that was *crap* on Windows Mobile. Each app has it's place.

Beta software should be treated as such.




Edited by Girvo: 8/9/2008 03:56:42 PM

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Groovy!

Girvo 
8/9/08 3:57:05 PM
Immortal

IP is property. If you have the exact same idea at the same time as someone else, and they beat you to the punch when it comes to implementation, the invention is treated as theirs to exploit.


I despise that however, because it means there cannot be competition.

-----
Groovy!

thesorehead 
8/9/08 4:39:59 PM
Guru

Firstly, I think we're working on different definitions of "crap software".

Crap Software - colloquially speaking, it runs like a dog and/or doesn't do what it's designed/supposed to do.

By this definition Perfect Dark, Goldeneye and a host of other great N64 games count as "crap software". Great games, sure - they do what they're supposed to do (provide entertainment) - but they run like a palsied slug. The beer simulation, however useless, is not "crap" because it does exactly what it's supposed to do and it does it without crashing or turning into a slideshow. This is the sort of quality control I would want - an analogy would be construction codes and specifications to ensure a building is safe to inhabit, but which have no bearing on what tasteless shade of orange you want to paint it.

I have to disagree that there cannot be competition with our current IP regime. Witness Windows vs. MacOS vs. Linux; Office vs. Lotus vs. OpenOffice; IE vs. Firefox vs. Opera vs. Chrome vs. Safari; Ford vs. Toyota vs. Holden vs. etc etc ... ; Logitech vs. Altec Lansing vs. Creative vs. Jamo; iPod vs. Creative vs. iRiver vs. Cowon.

These are all programs, devices and machines which perform similar functions and confirm to many of the same standards. But their individual approaches and innovations are what sets them apart as distinctly different ideas, affording their creators all the rights that an owner of IP ought to have - including the right to open the source code up to the world.

EDIT: I went through a couple of crap pseudo-spreadsheet / money manager apps an hours of browsing and trawling before I found one that did what I want. Would have been nice if there was a central repository for all these things. I'd have even paid a couple bux to get it if it was that easy.

I agree with you that it would be nice to just install apps on the iPhone the way we're all accustomed to doing it with our PCs, and that's what Symbian and WM devices offer. However you have to agree that variety is the spice of life and it's a good thing that there is a chunk of the market with one approach and another chunk with a different approach - this clash of ideologies is where the real competition is.


Edited by thesorehead: 8/9/2008 4:48:52 PM

-----
"Be Excellent to each other" - Bill and Ted
- - - Don't feed the Trolls!! - - -
"Consoles are toys. $250 is the most I will pay for a toy." - thesorehead

TheSecret 
8/9/08 5:02:45 PM
Overlord
Tick,

I did take a phone, the E51. The keyboard is not an issue, as it is in software, or you could buy a hardware keyboard for it as well. Can you do that with the iPhone?

Why do you keep ignoring what I say the iPhone supports? Have you been reading my other posts? Video calls?

I would not include things like moble me as communication because it is glorified syncing, and there ARE similar websites for other phones. While I did not clarify, I did mean direct communication between two people, SMS, Phone, that sort of way.

I agree, I don't like it, but it has more to do with being locked in and the fact they have just left out things, which even if I don't need, are basic and should be included. Maybe one day I will get a second hand iPhone 3.0 if it has the things I listed on page 1 by then.

-----
Part of the inhumanity of the computer is that, once it is
competently programmed and working smoothly, it is completely honest.

thesorehead 
8/9/08 5:04:36 PM
Guru

I want an iPhone. I will get one when it's included with a non-ludicrous data plan and has the features I want. The end.

-----
"Be Excellent to each other" - Bill and Ted
- - - Don't feed the Trolls!! - - -
"Consoles are toys. $250 is the most I will pay for a toy." - thesorehead

Girvo 
8/9/08 5:06:01 PM
Immortal

Actually, I think you'll find a lot of those big companies you've listed actually license a lot of the patents that each company has. :)

Again, I thank the iPhone for getting us into gear. I love that there is a central repository. The only gripe I had was the people are using "piracy" as an excuse, rather than, "It's really handy!".

;)

SkyMarket will be interesting to see how it's implemented. We then get the best of both worlds, similar to say, apt-get, where we get the CHOICE of being able to use the standard application repository like App Store, *or* go and grab "crap" beta software off places I want to get it from ;)

Do you see what I'm getting at?

Sorry about before, I was in a shitty mood.

-----
Groovy!

hill60606 
8/9/08 6:12:25 PM
Immortal

One of the things about the App store is that you can COMMUNICATE (there's that word again) with the developers and other users from your iPhone by writing reviews.

Many of the apps I've got have been updated or their price has changed due to these user reviews.

When the users of the apps plug in to iTunes on their PC's or visit the app store via their iPhone the updates can be applied.

-----
A decade of John Howard has left a country of timidity, fear and shame


His power resided in his ability to speak directly and powerfully to the negativity at the core of the Australian soul.

TheSecret 
8/9/08 6:32:44 PM
Overlord
Quote by hill60606
One of the things about the App store is that you can COMMUNICATE (there's that word again) with the developers and other users from your iPhone by writing reviews.

Many of the apps I've got have been updated or their price has changed due to these user reviews.

When the users of the apps plug in to iTunes on their PC's or visit the app store via their iPhone the updates can be applied.



You're completely missing the point, and stretching the word communicate out of context.

-----
Part of the inhumanity of the computer is that, once it is
competently programmed and working smoothly, it is completely honest.

hill60606 
8/9/08 6:40:23 PM
Immortal

Quote by TheSecret
You're completely missing the point, and stretching the word communicate out of context.



I don't think so:-

8 results for: communicate
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
com·mu·ni·cate
Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kuh-myoo-ni-keyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -cat·ed, -cat·ing.
–verb (used with object)
1. to impart knowledge of; make known: to communicate information; to communicate one's happiness.
2. to give to another; impart; transmit: to communicate a disease.
3. to administer the Eucharist to.
4. Archaic. to share in or partake of.
–verb (used without object)
5. to give or interchange thoughts, feelings, information, or the like, by writing, speaking, etc.: They communicate with each other every day.
6. to express thoughts, feelings, or information easily or effectively.
7. to be joined or connected: The rooms communicated by means of a hallway.
8. to partake of the Eucharist.
9. Obsolete. to take part or participate.
[Origin: 1520–30; < L comm&#363;nic&#257;tus, ptp. of comm&#363;nic&#257;re to impart, make common, equiv. to comm&#363;n(is) common + -ic&#257;re v. suffix]

—Synonyms 1. divulge, announce, disclose, reveal. Communicate, impart denote giving to a person or thing a part or share of something, now usually something immaterial, as knowledge, thoughts, hopes, qualities, or properties. Communicate, the more common word, implies often an indirect or gradual transmission: to communicate information by means of letters, telegrams, etc.; to communicate one's wishes to someone else. Impart usually implies directness of action: to impart information.
—Antonyms 1. withhold, conceal.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.
communicate

To learn more about communicate visit Britannica.com

© 2008 Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This
com·mu·ni·cate Audio Help (k&#601;-my&#333;&#333;'n&#301;-k&#257;t') Pronunciation Key
v. com·mu·ni·cat·ed, com·mu·ni·cat·ing, com·mu·ni·cates

v. tr.

1.
1. To convey information about; make known; impart: communicated his views to our office.
2. To reveal clearly; manifest: Her disapproval communicated itself in her frown.
2. To spread (a disease, for example) to others; transmit: a carrier who communicated typhus.


v. intr.

1. To have an interchange, as of ideas.
2. To express oneself in such a way that one is readily and clearly understood: "That ability to communicate was strange in a man given to long, awkward silences" (Anthony Lewis).
3. Ecclesiastical To receive Communion.
4. To be connected, one with another: apartments that communicate.



[Latin comm&#363;nic&#257;re, comm&#363;nic&#257;t-, from comm&#363;nis, common; see mei-1 in Indo-European roots.]

(Download Now or Buy the Book)
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
WordNet - Cite This Source - Share This
communicate

verb
1. transmit information ; "Please communicate this message to all employees"; "pass along the good news"
2. transmit thoughts or feelings; "He communicated his anxieties to the psychiatrist"
3. transfer to another; "communicate a disease" [syn: convey]
4. join or connect; "The rooms communicated"
5. be in verbal contact; interchange information or ideas; "He and his sons haven't communicated for years"; "Do you communicate well with your advisor?"
6. administer Communion; in church [ant: curse]
7. receive Communion, in the Catholic church [syn: commune]

WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.


Source:-
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=communicate

It's not just small developers there are some large one's too:-

http://www.ilounge.com/index.php/news/comments/ea-spore-for-iphone-coming-soon-other-titles-revea

I think I'll grab this.



Edited by hill60606: 8/9/2008 06:44:35 PM

-----
A decade of John Howard has left a country of timidity, fear and shame


His power resided in his ability to speak directly and powerfully to the negativity at the core of the Australian soul.

TheSecret 
8/9/08 7:02:43 PM
Overlord
Pasting a page of definitions has nothing to do with what I said.

-----
Part of the inhumanity of the computer is that, once it is
competently programmed and working smoothly, it is completely honest.

hill60606 
8/9/08 7:27:33 PM
Immortal

Quote by TheSecret
Pasting a page of definitions has nothing to do with what I said.



I have given you a definition of "communicate" yet you still choose to stand by your contention that exchanging ideas via writing reviews on the app store site and having that exchange of ideas acted upon i.e. developers update their applications and make improvements based on what the users of the applications tell them, that this is somehow NOT a form of communication.

Is this because you still cling to your notion that the iPhone is not an effective communication tool, no matter what?

-----
A decade of John Howard has left a country of timidity, fear and shame


His power resided in his ability to speak directly and powerfully to the negativity at the core of the Australian soul.

TheSecret 
8/9/08 7:35:13 PM
Overlord
Quote by hill60606
Quote by TheSecret
Pasting a page of definitions has nothing to do with what I said.



I have given you a definition of "communicate" yet you still choose to stand by your contention that exchanging ideas via writing reviews on the app store site and having that exchange of ideas acted upon i.e. developers update their applications and make improvements based on what the users of the applications tell them, that this is somehow NOT a form of communication.

Is this because you still cling to your notion that the iPhone is not an effective communication tool, no matter what?



No, it is because you only read what you want to read.

I said you were stretching the word out of context, a point I have made several times from when you first did. Communicate, in the context of this discussion, means direct communication between 2 or more people, examples being MMS, SMS, a phone call etc.

Connecting to an appstore or something is not any form of special communication it is just the internet, which is not anything special if all phones support it.

Out of the communication(as previously defined) features present in modern smartphones, the iPhone fails featurewise. Mainly with the lack of video chat/calls and MMS capability. Now that's fine if you don't need or want it and actually prefer glorified synching instead, but purely communication(as previously defined) wise, it has less features.

Also, I liked John Howard.


Edited by TheSecret: 8/9/2008 7:36:03 PM

-----
Part of the inhumanity of the computer is that, once it is
competently programmed and working smoothly, it is completely honest.

thesorehead 
8/9/08 10:40:53 PM
Guru

Quote by Girvo
Actually, I think you'll find a lot of those big companies you've listed actually license a lot of the patents that each company has. :)

Again, I thank the iPhone for getting us into gear. I love that there is a central repository. The only gripe I had was the people are using "piracy" as an excuse, rather than, "It's really handy!".

;)

SkyMarket will be interesting to see how it's implemented. We then get the best of both worlds, similar to say, apt-get, where we get the CHOICE of being able to use the standard application repository like App Store, *or* go and grab "crap" beta software off places I want to get it from ;)

Do you see what I'm getting at?

Sorry about before, I was in a shitty mood.



No sweat dude.

But back to IP - disregarding the unlikelihood of OpenOffice.Org paying MS for the ability to read Office documents - licensing is one of the benefits (IMHO) of the IP regimes that we have in place at the moment. It means that if you want to create something new that requires an existing piece of IP, you can't just grab an Axe Handle (TM), hammer in a Nail (TM) and call it an AxeHail2000 without giving credit to those inventors who your work was built on.

Of course, if you developed your own particular-shaped wooden shaft, and your own particular spikey metal bit and put them together you'd have a similar functioning weapon, but the design is all yours even when you sell individual items to fun-lovin' criminals.



I know you know this already, I ramble 'cos it's an area of interest for me and I believe in people being rewarded for their work however they see fit. If the market doesn't like it, guess what? They go out of business! If Mr Nail wants $100 for each bit of metal, someone's going to come along and invent their own solution and sell it for much less - or even give it away for free! That's competition.

I agree that the cry of "piracy" goes up too readily. And it's good that some sort of experimental repo is going up for those of us who like to be on the bleeding edge. But my view is that the only real hindrance to real competition is the habitual nature of average human beings - they'll just use or do what everyone else is using or doing for no better reason. The theory of competition that our laws are built on is that each individual is selfish and independent. But evidence has shown time and time again that we may be selfish, but we are certainly not the independent actors that the models predict. Most people behave, not act. The independence/interdependence balance must be finely tuned else we are either unable to cooperate or truly blind sheep.


Edited by thesorehead: 8/9/2008 10:41:27 PM

-----
"Be Excellent to each other" - Bill and Ted
- - - Don't feed the Trolls!! - - -
"Consoles are toys. $250 is the most I will pay for a toy." - thesorehead

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