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A 3 Month Suspoension is a little long, aint it?
johnsee 
3/9/08 7:24:33 PM
Mod
SuperHero

Immortal


As had been said several times, such requests go to David.

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Quote by Mac Dude
I love the smell of napalm in the Green Room.
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Nich... 
4/9/08 1:15:11 AM
Hero
Immortal


Quote by TinBane
If that evidence isn't sufficient, and you are told to back off repeatedly by the mod team, and you ignore that request, you'll get yourself banned whether you are right or not.

But if you somehow know your evidence will be sufficient, then you can harass people whether you're told to back off or not?



Quote by johnsee
As had been said several times, such requests go to David.


I'm getting confused now: do such requests go to David and get sorted out, or are all bans permanent?

You guys should work out which line you're going to stick with, I mean, you don't change horses in the middle of the stream.

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...it doesnt matter, cos I'm packing plastic
That's what makes my life so fucking fantastic
I am a weapon of massive consumption
And it's not my fault, it's how I'm programmed to function...

Gharphield 
4/9/08 7:19:58 AM
Mod
Hero

Immortal


Quote by Nich...
Quote by TinBane
If that evidence isn't sufficient, and you are told to back off repeatedly by the mod team, and you ignore that request, you'll get yourself banned whether you are right or not.

But if you somehow know your evidence will be sufficient, then you can harass people whether you're told to back off or not?



Quote by johnsee
As had been said several times, such requests go to David.


I'm getting confused now: do such requests go to David and get sorted out, or are all bans permanent?

You guys should work out which line you're going to stick with, I mean, you don't change horses in the middle of the stream.



I think you like asking silly questions Nich..., at least your last 100 or so posts in here alone seem to be directed in this manner.

No it's not ok to harrass people. Banned Alt or whatever do you really think it's nice or decent to harrass people? I think not.

As for the banned / stays banned comment. Gee it's not like people who have been banned have come back (Lewis? You there man?) many people have. You know this, so again I have no idea why you're askign such a stupid question, I can only assume that you're trying to troll one (or all) of the *ods up on this.

If you're banned, go talk to David. Or you could be like a lot of other users and just re-create another account every few weeks and thus continue to get banned then call foul when you ask to get let back in and the door shuts in your face.

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Wakka wakka wakka wakka *FRUIT*

Lex Talionis

I'm not being aggressive, I'm just being dominant.

TinBane 
4/9/08 10:24:27 AM
Mod
Hero

Immortal


Quote by Nich...
But if you somehow know your evidence will be sufficient, then you can harass people whether you're told to back off or not?



No. If you have sufficient evidence, you hand it over to the mods to deal with. Being right is no justification either.

Let's have a stupid hypothetical discussion about something that isn't atomic, but may as well be for the purpose of a pointless argument.

Let's assume your brother (that we assume you have) gets killed in a pub fight. There isn't any evidence that can be used to arrest someone. If you find such evidence, you go to the cops, it's not hard. You deal with it within the framework for solving such issues.

If you kill or beat up the guy, on a hunch (or on withheld evidence) and a policeman rocks up and tells you to stop, do you keep going just a little bit more, because you'd like to?

Right or wrong in your hunch, there is a right way, and a wrong way to go about things. And as long as I've been on atomic, ignoring the request of a moderator, has been wrong.

Quote by Nich...
I'm getting confused now: do such requests go to David and get sorted out, or are all bans permanent?

You guys should work out which line you're going to stick with, I mean, you don't change horses in the middle of the stream.



Who is changing horses? I don't see why there needs to be any confusion. If you are banned, you are banned. David may choose to commute a banning to a suspension. The mods can make recommendations to David, and bring bannings to his attention, however if you are banned, and don't hear anything then it's up to you to follow up with David.

One thing that never ceases to amaze me, is how people seem to think the best way to approach David is. David has access to the discussion involving any banning or mod action, that's how he does his job of overseeing the mod team. So, flat out lying to him isn't really going to work.

The number one rule with bannings in my experience, is that they are all individual. I don't really believe that any two contentious bannings are every totally comparable. The mindless ones we don't have to think twice about (spambots etc) maybe, but not the contentious ones. There is always a lot of variables and a lot of context. Each decision to commute a banning is a separate decision.

It's pretty easy to work out what David looks for in an 'unban' request email, and in the behaviour of the user afterwards. But it seems that some people never learn. There are literally thousands of users on atomic that can and do obey the rules, many of whom never have a single run-in with a mod. Then there are a few that have a 'rap-sheet' several pages long.

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absit iniuria verbis

Quote by MrFriendly
"Will laser burn body for clothes"



Midnighter 
4/9/08 11:30:20 AM
Immortal

Tinny, stop using logic mate, it upsets the house of cards they rely on. :P

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-The price of freedom, the price to soar, is small. All they ask for is your wings.
-Quote by Kothos
I wouldn't suck his dick, but he's all right.
-If there's one thing guaranteed to fuck me off, it's the sheer miserable meanness of the human

Nich... 
5/9/08 11:37:24 AM
Hero
Immortal


Quote by Gharphield
Quote by Nich...
Quote by TinBane
If that evidence isn't sufficient, and you are told to back off repeatedly by the mod team, and you ignore that request, you'll get yourself banned whether you are right or not.

But if you somehow know your evidence will be sufficient, then you can harass people whether you're told to back off or not?



Quote by johnsee
As had been said several times, such requests go to David.


I'm getting confused now: do such requests go to David and get sorted out, or are all bans permanent?

You guys should work out which line you're going to stick with, I mean, you don't change horses in the middle of the stream.



I think you like asking silly questions Nich..., at least your last 100 or so posts in here alone seem to be directed in this manner.

Well if you like, when I see you guys say something silly/contradictory/stupid, I'll let it slide and you an deal with the people who take everything literally? The team has made it clear numerous times that there are no hard and fast rules, flexible judgement is the name of the game, but that shouldn't mean you can get sloppy when talking about it and leave loopholes for some people to try and be annoying with.


No it's not ok to harrass people. Banned Alt or whatever do you really think it's nice or decent to harrass people? I think not.
Sure, but what people see as harassment is open to interpretation. What counts as community modding via influence and pressure, and what counts as harassment?

I can only assume that you're trying to troll one (or all) of the *ods up on this.
I could be equally as useless and ask if you guys are just trolling for people who don't actually know better. I'm reasonably sure that if I'm not trolling a specific person and am aiming it at any mod who happens to look/all mods in general, I do it via an RTM.


Quote by TinBane
Quote by Nich...
I mean, you don't change horses in the middle of the stream.


Who is changing horses?


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120885/


Edited by Nich...: 5/9/2008 11:39:53 AM

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...it doesnt matter, cos I'm packing plastic
That's what makes my life so fucking fantastic
I am a weapon of massive consumption
And it's not my fault, it's how I'm programmed to function...

TinBane 
5/9/08 2:15:34 PM
Mod
Hero

Immortal


I've seen the movie.

But I don't frankly understand how it relates to what the *ods have said. As far as I can see, we've been pretty explicit and consistent.


Edited by TinBane: 5/9/2008 2:15:50 PM

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absit iniuria verbis

Quote by MrFriendly
"Will laser burn body for clothes"



Nich... 
5/9/08 2:28:12 PM
Hero
Immortal


If a ban can be changed to be a not-ban, whether an unbanning or merely a temporary suspension, then bans clearly aren't permanent. It thus makes the threat of a ban lose a lot of the impact it should have, when realistically you're just suspending some people indefinitely-until-they-sort-it-out-with-David, and if that goes bad then it becomes a ban, invisibly.

Which is a moot point seeing as I'm the only person that seems to care about that discrepancy.


(The movie quote relates in as much as I've wanted to use it for years, and this seemed a good opportunity that was at least partially relevant)


Edited by Nich...: 5/9/2008 2:30:50 PM

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...it doesnt matter, cos I'm packing plastic
That's what makes my life so fucking fantastic
I am a weapon of massive consumption
And it's not my fault, it's how I'm programmed to function...

TinBane 
5/9/08 2:42:27 PM
Mod
Hero

Immortal


By your definition, a ban is only not a suspension, if it is never overturned until the end of time. Thus no ban can be ruled a ban until such a point in time. Maybe when David moves on, or David's replacement moves on, in twenty years, some banned members will be unbanned.

What's important, is that if you are banned, you are banned. There is no 'suspended' rank or punishment from mods. A suspended user, is in reality a banned user that David has seen fit to give a finite ban to in advance.

I really think it's just a semantic argument. In reality, if you are banned once, and it's commuted to a suspension, and you get banned again, you can pretty safely assume you aren't coming back. Depending on what you do, you may be banned once, and not allowed to come back. It's all down to context.

I take it you think a banned member should never be allowed back, or some kind of banned/suspended distinction made? Unfortunately, ANY banned user's request to return will be taken seriously. I doubt there are any users we can totally write off forever. People change.

It's entirely up to the "Davids and Bens" of the day to decide who can have another chance.

-----
absit iniuria verbis

Quote by MrFriendly
"Will laser burn body for clothes"



Nich... 
5/9/08 2:53:39 PM
Hero
Immortal


I get what you're saying, I just think that it'd be clearer for everyone if people were given suspensions instead of bannings. They get their usual recourse in appealing to David. If he tells them to GTFO, (or probably after a set period of time for people who don't even bother trying to make recompense) then change it to a ban. That way people know what one is a slap on the wrist, and what one was serious enough for there to be no coming back from.

Yes, all bans are serious, but some of them aren't that serious - see Leonid posting a PM and getting himself banned for a few days or whatever, vs people you obviously don't want back on the site, ever.

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...it doesnt matter, cos I'm packing plastic
That's what makes my life so fucking fantastic
I am a weapon of massive consumption
And it's not my fault, it's how I'm programmed to function...

TinBane 
5/9/08 3:08:03 PM
Mod
Hero

Immortal


I can see your point. But at the same time, it seems like marginal benefit requiring a decent amount of work. That's just my opinion.

I don't think there is a 'set time' after a ban in which you need to appeal. It's more to do with how you go about appealing, and whether you try and circumvent a banning, than anything else. If you get banned, and need to take three years off to clear your head, and then get back to us, then that is a much better idea than sending a shitty email to David a week after your ban.

-----
absit iniuria verbis

Quote by MrFriendly
"Will laser burn body for clothes"



plebsmacker 
5/9/08 4:50:44 PM
Hero
Immortal


Love the Red Herring johnsee

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Give me ambiguity or give me something else

Sinamorata. 
7/9/08 12:58:44 AM
Overlord

Quote by johnsee
Quote by lunchbox1988
Juggs could be allowed back if he was in the mood to talk to mr Hollingworth and sort something out, but I think he is just busy and CBF right now.

They have had mini chats in the past, but never went past there.



Juggs has been let back in, and he messed it up again.




No he didn't, he got shafted.
That's why the thread where he got banned has been hidden.

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When the fires of hell have burned to the core.

Hell bent! hell bent for liquor! Wines fine, but whiskeys quicker!

1shot1kill 
7/9/08 1:02:13 AM
SuperHero
Colossus


Quote by Sinamorata.
No he didn't, he got shafted.
That's why the thread where he got banned has been hidden.



Which bit are you disputing? That he got let back in or that he messed up again?

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Harden up, BITCHES!!

Quis custodiet custodes ipsos?

It's still rocket surgery. I just make it look easy, is all.

Sinamorata. 
7/9/08 1:08:08 AM
Overlord

Quote by 1shot1kill
Quote by Sinamorata.
No he didn't, he got shafted.
That's why the thread where he got banned has been hidden.



Which bit are you disputing? That he got let back in or that he messed up again?



He didn't mess up.
Ben was pissed and got the shits with him and banned him for being argumentitive. I didn't see where that was against the rules.

-----
When the fires of hell have burned to the core.

Hell bent! hell bent for liquor! Wines fine, but whiskeys quicker!

1shot1kill 
7/9/08 1:20:54 AM
SuperHero
Colossus


It could be said that he ignored the request of a moderator.

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Harden up, BITCHES!!

Quis custodiet custodes ipsos?

It's still rocket surgery. I just make it look easy, is all.

TinBane 
7/9/08 1:24:44 AM
Mod
Hero

Immortal


Quote by Sinamorata.
He didn't mess up.
Ben was pissed and got the shits with him and banned him for being argumentitive. I didn't see where that was against the rules.



Sure. Whatever.


Edited by TinBane: 7/9/2008 01:25:41 AM

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absit iniuria verbis

Quote by MrFriendly
"Will laser burn body for clothes"



Master_Scythe 
7/9/08 5:17:59 PM
Titan

1 month is a long enough time IMO.

by that time they're wanting to come back, and at the same time, theyve been punished.

I see month long bans, but 1/4 of a year? thats a damn long time.

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johnsee 
7/9/08 5:23:59 PM
Mod
SuperHero

Immortal


Quote by plebsmacker
Love the Red Herring johnsee



It's a salmon.

His name is Sammy

:)

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10
9
8

3

plebsmacker 
7/9/08 8:07:07 PM
Hero
Immortal


uh huh

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Give me ambiguity or give me something else

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