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You're kidding me
Mac Dude 
7/8/08 12:56:04 PM
Mod
SuperHero

Immortal


Quote by superfireydave
Quote by Mac Dude
or, because it's not broken :)


No, it really is.
It's something that wasn't thought of at the beginning and it's a usability nightmare.



The inability to change titles is a 'usability nightmare'?

Wow. I would call it a minor inconvenience at best.

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Watch Out!
Whatever hits the fan will not be distributed evenly

superfireydave 
7/8/08 3:39:46 PM
Titan

I may or may not have been exagerrating a little >_>
But seriously Mac Dude, can you not appreciate that there's a host of little things that users want that would make it easier for the mods to do their job too? It's one of those things.

Quote by TheFrunj
Quote by superfireydave
I'm not saying any of us should fix it.
I'm just saying it's one of many usability issues this codebase suffers from that's implemented on many other forums and is almost EXACTLY THE SAME as the EDIT POST function.


We aren't the same as "other forums" ;)


No, we're supposed to be a maximum power computing forum, yet we're using a forum that was superseded years ago by free solutions.


Edited by superfireydave: 7/8/2008 03:41:25 PM

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Mreow?
http://www.atomicmpc.com.au/forums.asp?s=2&c=9&t=17306

Meeko 
7/8/08 3:57:39 PM
Titan

You're crazy, Dave. Since when is making things easy for the mods a good thing? :-P

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smadge1 
7/8/08 5:02:11 PM
Immortal

yeah, I can just imagine the mods changing thread titles to "You're a poo-brain" or something.

-----

I broke my ass in a farting accident.

[ .. The WHS Guy .. ]

http://geocline.net/
17938

spyder 
7/8/08 7:15:55 PM
SuperHero
Immortal


Quote by superfireydave
No, we're supposed to be a maximum power computing forum, yet we're using a forum that was superseded years ago by free solutions.


Please, link us to YOUR free, handcoded CMS and Forum software, perfect as it apparently is.

Sure, this site may not have some features that other sites do. But considering what Evil Admin has put together, his blood, sweat and tears, considering that it has gathered a huge number of regular users, considering the other pressures and responsibilities that EA has upon him, what we have is pretty damn good, and probably won't be changing massively any time soon (despite the continuing bitching and moaning from many - remember if you ain't happy with this place, you're more than free to leave).

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E6850|Thermalright Ultra 120|Antec Atlas case|Thermaltake Toughpower 600W P/S|Asus P5K Deluxe/WiFi|2Gb OCZ 8500 Reaper|3x500Gb+1x160Gb SATA Drives|Pioneer 212 DVDRW |XFX 8800GTX|Creative Xfi Sound|2 x Viewsonic 2021m 20" LCD monitors

superfireydave 
7/8/08 7:22:58 PM
Titan

I think it's been mentioned in a heap of other threads. http://www.phpbb.com/ is one of many.

What the hell does "hand coded" mean anyway? Do you think machines make the rest of the web applications that are on the net? I think you're talking about bespoke versus commercial or opensource but it doesn't hurt to be sure :|

I respect that someone has spent time making the forums, but that doesn't mean they should be absolved from any criticism.

No, this isn't whinging I'm just pointing out that it's not an easy fix. This IS the website feedback forum after all, and what I'm giving is feedback .

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Mreow?
http://www.atomicmpc.com.au/forums.asp?s=2&c=9&t=17306

spyder 
7/8/08 7:52:40 PM
SuperHero
Immortal


Quote by superfireydave
I think it's been mentioned in a heap of other threads. http://www.phpbb.com/ is one of many.


That's not YOUR software.

Quote by superfireydave
What the hell does "hand coded" mean anyway? Do you think machines make the rest of the web applications that are on the net? I think you're talking about bespoke versus commercial or opensource but it doesn't hurt to be sure :|


I mean that Evil Admin wrote, coded and assembled the CMS and Forum software HIMSELF (from v1, and with a small group of code monkeys for v2 and 2.5/6).

Quote by superfireydave I respect that someone has spent time making the forums,


Good.

Quote by superfireydave
but that doesn't mean they should be absolved from any criticism.


CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, sure. But it seems of late that there are many who are DEMANDING that features/functions be implemented. That was the point I was making.

Quote by superfireydave
No, this isn't whinging I'm just pointing out that it's not an easy fix. This IS the website feedback forum after all, and what I'm giving is feedback .


No argument there. But as above, so long as the feedback is CONSTRUCTIVE and not a whinge/bitch/moan/complaint that the site isn't exactly 100% up to each and every users' want/wish/demand/expectation.

I'm sure each idea is being collated, and when the time comes (meaning both time, resources, business decision), they will be implemented.

Lets not forget that this site is nothing but a money drain for Haymarket. They get next to no revenue in return for operating this site. All they get is goodwill. Not something that imspires an interest in investing any more cash into it. It serves it purpose to engender a community spirit (despite thet fact that there are a lot of people who do NOT buy the mag), get the Atomic name out there, but not much else.

Lets never forget the "Green Code"...

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E6850|Thermalright Ultra 120|Antec Atlas case|Thermaltake Toughpower 600W P/S|Asus P5K Deluxe/WiFi|2Gb OCZ 8500 Reaper|3x500Gb+1x160Gb SATA Drives|Pioneer 212 DVDRW |XFX 8800GTX|Creative Xfi Sound|2 x Viewsonic 2021m 20" LCD monitors

superfireydave 
7/8/08 8:38:01 PM
Titan

Quote by spyder
Quote by superfireydave
I think it's been mentioned in a heap of other threads. http://www.phpbb.com/ is one of many.


That's not YOUR software.


No, but it's completely free under the GNU public license.
If someone was to employ me to construct a forum I would, but at the moment I don't really have the time to engineer and program my own just to prove a point here.


Quote by superfireydave
What the hell does "hand coded" mean anyway? Do you think machines make the rest of the web applications that are on the net? I think you're talking about bespoke versus commercial or opensource but it doesn't hurt to be sure :|


I mean that Evil Admin wrote, coded and assembled the CMS and Forum software HIMSELF (from v1, and with a small group of code monkeys for v2 and 2.5/6).

So you mean like most bespoke development a web developer might encounter.


Quote by superfireydave
but that doesn't mean they should be absolved from any criticism.


CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, sure. But it seems of late that there are many who are DEMANDING that features/functions be implemented. That was the point I was making.


I think it is fairly constructive. There's an issue with thread titles not being able to be changed. Possible solution: enable an OP to change a thread title in the same manner a poster can edit their own post. Allowing mods to edit titles is a little different, but given the functionality for editing posts is already present, the functionality for editing topics would not be a large jump at all.



Lets not forget that this site is nothing but a money drain for Haymarket. They get next to no revenue in return for operating this site. All they get is goodwill. Not something that imspires an interest in investing any more cash into it. It serves it purpose to engender a community spirit (despite thet fact that there are a lot of people who do NOT buy the mag), get the Atomic name out there, but not much else.
Oh really? Last I checked there were a heap of ads here. Not only that, but it's the online presence for atomic (a Haymarket publication?). I can understand it not being extremely profitable directly, but indirectly I'd not be surprised if it was making them money (through people seeing the site and going "Oh wow, I might buy this next time" or "Oh wow, I'ma subscribe").

I can understand your side of it, but there's really not that many negatives to increasing the usability of the site.

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Mreow?
http://www.atomicmpc.com.au/forums.asp?s=2&c=9&t=17306

eckythump 
7/8/08 9:19:54 PM
Overlord

Quote by spyder
Quote by superfireydave
I think it's been mentioned in a heap of other threads. http://www.phpbb.com/ is one of many.


That's not YOUR software.


Sorry, but I think you're being a prat. No one is trying to take anything away from the time and effort that's been put into the site we've got not, but it's aged and it hasn't been kept fresh with regular TLC. I think you'll also find a lot of the whinging yo usee here is because people love the community that is gathered here, and just wish that it'd be improved.

And it is kind of sad when you go and look at some website that a 15 year old setup in 10 minuts by unzipping some stuff into their webspace and quickly running through a web-based config, taking all of 3 minutes, and then they have a fully functional forum that actually seems to work and look better than this one.

Quote by superfireydave
but that doesn't mean they should be absolved from any criticism.


CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, sure. But it seems of late that there are many who are DEMANDING that features/functions be implemented. That was the point I was making.


I haven't seen demanding. There's been a lot of asking, pleading, begging, but I haven't seen any demanding. People may be a little less tactful than is appropriate, but you can't blame people for feeling a little bitter when such requests/suggestions are rarely acknowledged, let alone scheduled for future implementation.

No argument there. But as above, so long as the feedback is CONSTRUCTIVE and not a whinge/bitch/moan/complaint that the site isn't exactly 100% up to each and every users' want/wish/demand/expectation.

I'm sure each idea is being collated, and when the time comes (meaning both time, resources, business decision), they will be implemented.


It'd be nice to think that, but all the feedback is coming from the users, and we get very little/none coming back the other direction. I think you'd find people would be a lot more cheery about everything if it felt like we were being taken seriously and our ideas weren't just getting put straight into the bin.

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"Grandfather had an accident, he got burnt." "Oh no, how bad?" "Well, they don't fuck around at the crematorium."

Takoma 
7/8/08 10:15:06 PM
Hero
Immortal


Quote by eckythump
I think you'd find people would be a lot more cheery about everything if it felt like we were being taken seriously and our ideas weren't just getting put straight into the bin.


I think the point Spyder's trying to make is that sometimes, posts in here can come off as though Atomic owes us something, but it doesn't. What we have here is a site that's been developed, hosted, managed and upgraded at Haymarket's expense, and then opened for our use, for free.

Now, I'm not sleeping with Haymarket's accountant, but I think it'd be fair to say that this joint isn't exactly a golden cash cow for them. It might sell a few mags, it might generate a bit of ad revenue, but I'd be very surprised if the ads (which are likely the only quantifiable revenue stream) went any further than covering costs.

Never forget that this site is provided free of charge by a company that spends money to give it to us, and never forget that once upon a time, you had to pay to access parts of it. I don't think that it's a case of suggestions going in the bin, as much as it is the Atomic staff having to be a conduit between Management and the community, and having to exercise a little restraint lest they inflame things further. After all, how many times do you really want them to say "Sorry can't, no dev time"?

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There is no knowledge that is not power.

1shot1kill 
7/8/08 10:19:43 PM
SuperHero
Colossus


I know that the mods are taking suggestions/constructive criticism directed at them on board. They may not act on it all the time, but they do take notice.

The mods aren't Haymarket, however. I'm left thinking that since Ben Mansill left, there's practically no one left at Haymarket that really cares about this place anymore. Just how often does Dave stick his head in here? How often does Dan stick his head in? We see Faldo & estate every now & then, but the others? Who?

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Harden up, BITCHES!!

Quis custodiet custodes ipsos?

It's still rocket surgery. I just make it look easy, is all.

TinBane 
7/8/08 10:33:22 PM
Mod
Hero

Immortal


1Shot: Ben wasn't editor for quite a while before his departure from atomic's staff. I believe David is up to his eyeballs in work, putting the mag together and getting it to print, given recent events.

I don't think it's really fair to compare Ben and David directly, given the differences, as a whole. Dan I believe, is busy as well, given that Haymarket has expanded it's range of products, and wants sites up from the get-go, which also goes some way to explaining why resources aren't being directed at atomic, at this moment.

dave and ecky: I can understand the frustration, however the mods and even gods, are not in a position to act on changing the site, at the current time.

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absit iniuria verbis

Quote by MrFriendly
"Will laser burn body for clothes"



1shot1kill 
7/8/08 10:37:06 PM
SuperHero
Colossus


Quote by TinBane
I don't think it's really fair to compare Ben and David directly, given the differences, as a whole.



You do have a valid point and I apologise for making a direct comparo, but seeing as how a lot of mag content is now on the site, I think it fair that some notice is taken.

And, uhhhh...Recent events?


Edited by 1shot1kill: 7/8/2008 10:37:35 PM

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Harden up, BITCHES!!

Quis custodiet custodes ipsos?

It's still rocket surgery. I just make it look easy, is all.

elvenwhore 
7/8/08 10:58:21 PM
SuperHero
Titan


Quote by eckythump
It'd be nice to think that, but all the feedback is coming from the users, and we get very little/none coming back the other direction. I think you'd find people would be a lot more cheery about everything if it felt like we were being taken seriously and our ideas weren't just getting put straight into the bin.


hmmmm, keep in mind that you may have people who agree with suggestions made here in Website Feedback, but don't always speak up (for a variety of reasons). Thus, threads may appear to be out of balance and it may appear as though you're encountering outright resistance. This won't always be the case, of course, but just throwing the possibility out there. I understand it's easy to become frustrated when you feel your voice isn't being heard. And that's understandable, and that's natural. Perspective is often the first casuality of an emotional experience, however, so try to realise that just because you may feel unheard, it doesn't mean that you are.

Quote by spyder
Quote by superfireydave
but that doesn't mean they should be absolved from any criticism.


CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, sure. But it seems of late that there are many who are DEMANDING that features/functions be implemented. That was the point I was making.


Agreed. It can be a bit of a fine line to walk. Some of us here are remarkably laid-back with regards to the site :-) Myself, I just get a little worn trying to walk the line between offering (or backing up) suggestions and being too demanding. This is Website Feedback, and constructive feedback for improvements to the site are a good thing :-) A lot of site changes have come about directly because of community discussion, and I think that is a credit to the pantheon of Atomic.

Some ideas are rejected by the community, sure, and sometimes that's because they suck, and sometimes only a small subsection are interested. Such is the reality of having a huge melting pot of individuals. It still doesn't necessarily mean your ideas will be outright rejected by the pantheon. They have the best interests of this place at heart, I'm sure they don't sit there ignoring us just for the sake of it.

Quote by spyder
I'm sure each idea is being collated, and when the time comes (meaning both time, resources, business decision), they will be implemented.


Well said :-)
I understand what it's like to be lost in development hell. I know what it's like to have people make requests only to know you won't be able to help them, at least temporarily. And when temporarily stretches on and on, it's frustrating for everyone. Not to mention just really, really disheartening for those at the helm, both professionally and personally.

I think it's a given that there's a few things around this place that could do with a spot of attention. I think we've all run into something here that we'd like fixed. And I'm sure the dev team would love to help us out. The reality, though, is that they can't afford us complete vanity due to the sliding window nature of development time.

Quote by superfireydave
Oh really? Last I checked there were a heap of ads here. Not only that, but it's the online presence for atomic (a Haymarket publication?).


Yeah - ads that a lot of people freely admit they block. And of those of us who don't, not all click on the ads.
Ben has had this discussion previously on the forums regarding revenue. He was always quite straightforward on the issue that Atomic needed this clickage. The site simply doesn't generate money, although I think we could probably solve the bloody worldwide energy crisis if we were able to harness all the anger, hatred and flaming from the Green Room and turn it into a neat little money spinner ;-)

Quote by superfireydave
I can understand your side of it, but there's really not that many negatives to increasing the usability of the site.


Usability is important, I agree with you. There may not be many negatives, there just may not be a sufficient enough business case in Haymarket Media's eyes to justify spending the money and dev time getting it all fixed right away.

Quote by Takoma
After all, how many times do you really want them to say "Sorry can't, no dev time"?


Yah. Even I get tired of trying to soothe people with the "sorry can't, no dev time" and I've got technically nothing to do with Atomic.

You know, all of you are not so far removed from each other, you do realise that? :-) Fundamentally, we all want what's best for Atomic. Realistically, wen're not all going to get what we want right away. Practically, all we can do is hang in there and stay the course - or not. We all have that choice. But this is frustrating and disheartening for us all, I see no reason to make the situation worse.

Relax a little bit :-)

-----
The morning glows cobalt through a gauze of steam and fog that carries Death & Ash from a thousand trees. Crows from miles around are lurking. This won’t hurt a bit. This is the martyrdom of the chaos whore virgin. This is her final dawn.

TheSecret 
8/8/08 12:42:05 AM
Master
This could all be solved by using one of the free CMS solutions, at least until there is dev time. No effort on haymarkets part, and users are happy..it is not a question of money or dev time, so what is the reason for staying with an outdated forum?

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Part of the inhumanity of the computer is that, once it is competently programmed and working smoothly, it is completely honest.

Gharphield 
8/8/08 8:20:00 AM
Mod
Hero

Immortal


superfireydave: not going to argue your points away, Spyder already did a KO on that one, I just wanted to make a note on the quote:

Oh really? Last I checked there were a heap of ads here

Err no there's not a HEAP of ads here, there's more on YouTube, and a shit load more on other forums that I'm part of, I mean a SHITLOAD more, you have to scroll down a bit just to miss them. But guess what they need money to operate a website and those ads help them do that (in this case its not a corp / business but more so a group of people who just want to run a site).

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Wakka wakka wakka wakka *FRUIT*

Lex Talionis

I'm not being aggressive, I'm just being dominant.

TinBane 
8/8/08 8:39:27 AM
Mod
Hero

Immortal


Quote by TheSecret
This could all be solved by using one of the free CMS solutions, at least until there is dev time. No effort on haymarkets part, and users are happy..it is not a question of money or dev time, so what is the reason for staying with an outdated forum?



Have you ever tried to get a large company to adopt an open source solution onto a server with dozens of mission critical websites hosting millions of views a day? How long do you think they'd have to spend reviewing the options, and checking the code etc?

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absit iniuria verbis

Quote by MrFriendly
"Will laser burn body for clothes"



TheSecret 
8/8/08 8:44:38 AM
Master
Quote by TinBane
Quote by TheSecret
This could all be solved by using one of the free CMS solutions, at least until there is dev time. No effort on haymarkets part, and users are happy..it is not a question of money or dev time, so what is the reason for staying with an outdated forum?



Have you ever tried to get a large company to adopt an open source solution onto a server with dozens of mission critical websites hosting millions of views a day? How long do you think they'd have to spend reviewing the options, and checking the code etc?



Yes I have. The answer depends on the company, but in this case it would be a whole lot less than trying to devote dev time.

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Part of the inhumanity of the computer is that, once it is competently programmed and working smoothly, it is completely honest.

TinBane 
8/8/08 8:57:25 AM
Mod
Hero

Immortal


Quote by TheSecret
Yes I have. The answer depends on the company, but in this case it would be a whole lot less than trying to devote dev time.



So, you are privy to the inside workings of Haymarket IT? Or, you (and everyone else) is simply assuming that when they DO have dev time, Haymarket will choose to modify the current forum?

Who knows what is around the corner. Suffice to say, even if there i no IMMEDIATE action based on your comments (and similar comments previously made) who knows what is happening behind the scenes.

When there is dev time, I'm sure all the avenues will be examined.

-----
absit iniuria verbis

Quote by MrFriendly
"Will laser burn body for clothes"



smadge1 
8/8/08 10:20:09 AM
Immortal

some forums have adbots, which insert ads into the second post of every page.

that would be annoying. but you would pay a subscription to hide them.

-----

I broke my ass in a farting accident.
I have a bag of salty nuts.

[ .. The WHS Guy .. ]

http://geocline.net/
17938

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