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View poll results: Should this woman have got the baby bonus?
No 19 59.38%
Yes 6 18.75%
Maybe 7 21.88%
Voters: 32
   
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Baby bonus when baby dies before term
hlass 
28/8/08 11:14:38 AM
Hero
Titan



From another thread but I think is interesting enough for it's own.

The Baby bonus is paid to the mother if the Baby dies after 20 weeks of gestation. The bonus is $5,000 as lump sum (unless the mother is 17 or under) for each child.

Several years ago one of my clients got the baby bonus after her baby died at 23 weeks of a Placental abruption as a direct result of her methamphetamine usage.

Should she have got the bonus? If not, why not and should the money go elsewhere?

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Well that's great, that's just fuckin' great man. Now what the fuck are we supposed to do? We're in some real pretty shit now man... That's it man, game over man, game over! What the fuck are we gonna do now? What are we gonna do?

lunchbox1988 
28/8/08 11:15:36 AM
Guru

As said in the other thread, should have gone to rehab or counselling.

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hlass 
28/8/08 11:18:08 AM
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Titan


Quote by lunchbox1988
As said in the other thread, should have gone to rehab or counselling.



Government money should have gone to a private entity? Also you cannot force someone to attend a private treatment facility and such a facility has no legal means to hold someone.

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Well that's great, that's just fuckin' great man. Now what the fuck are we supposed to do? We're in some real pretty shit now man... That's it man, game over man, game over! What the fuck are we gonna do now? What are we gonna do?

lunchbox1988 
28/8/08 11:22:00 AM
Guru

Centrelink and other organisations push people towards rehab / counselling for other shit all the time.

I have known people who lived in a violent household whose parents were refused benefits unless they seeked counselling assistance.

Rehab and counselling centres exist within government as well, I work for council and get free therapy / counselling if I need it.

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AL Gore; Finally, I get to save the Earth with deadly lasers instead of deadly slideshows!



EEEPC 1000H - 1.6GHz Atom - 2GB DDR2 667 - Ubuntu-ish
hlass 
28/8/08 11:26:50 AM
Hero
Titan


Quote by lunchbox1988
Centrelink and other organisations push people towards rehab / counselling for other shit all the time.

I have known people who lived in a violent household whose parents were refused benefits unless they seeked counseling assistance.

Rehab and counselling centres exist within government as well, I work for council and get free therapy / counselling if I need it.



Certainly but public services are already free for all. Why would money come into the equation at all?
Also there are no means to force someone into counseling or rehab. Certainly entities like the courts and DOCS can suggest someone goes or something will be withheld/lost (etc) but if the person doesn't go they cannot be forced to.

Are you suggesting that the money be given to the woman as long as she goes to into some form of treatment?

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Well that's great, that's just fuckin' great man. Now what the fuck are we supposed to do? We're in some real pretty shit now man... That's it man, game over man, game over! What the fuck are we gonna do now? What are we gonna do?

lunchbox1988 
28/8/08 11:28:55 AM
Guru

Yea, well, not forced, but advised that if she is at least willing to go to private counselling (on government dollars) she will get it.

It sounds slack to say that to a woman who just lost her child, but it was her own fault.

-----
AL Gore; Finally, I get to save the Earth with deadly lasers instead of deadly slideshows!



EEEPC 1000H - 1.6GHz Atom - 2GB DDR2 667 - Ubuntu-ish
hlass 
28/8/08 11:31:20 AM
Hero
Titan


Quote by lunchbox1988
Yea, well, not forced, but advised that if she is at least willing to go to private counselling (on government dollars) she will get it.

It sounds slack to say that to a woman who just lost her child, but it was her own fault.



Why are we paying for her to get private counseling when, at no extra cost to anyone, free public services are available?

-----
Well that's great, that's just fuckin' great man. Now what the fuck are we supposed to do? We're in some real pretty shit now man... That's it man, game over man, game over! What the fuck are we gonna do now? What are we gonna do?

lunchbox1988 
28/8/08 11:34:10 AM
Guru

Quote by hlass
Quote by lunchbox1988
Yea, well, not forced, but advised that if she is at least willing to go to private counselling (on government dollars) she will get it.

It sounds slack to say that to a woman who just lost her child, but it was her own fault.



Why are we paying for her to get private counseling when, at no extra cost to anyone, free public services are available?




-Private sessions can be more easily monitored.
-Private sessions are likely to be more focused.
-Public sessions can be, and sometimes are only, group sessions.

-----
AL Gore; Finally, I get to save the Earth with deadly lasers instead of deadly slideshows!



EEEPC 1000H - 1.6GHz Atom - 2GB DDR2 667 - Ubuntu-ish
hlass 
28/8/08 11:35:08 AM
Hero
Titan


Quote by lunchbox1988
Quote by hlass
Quote by lunchbox1988
Yea, well, not forced, but advised that if she is at least willing to go to private counselling (on government dollars) she will get it.

It sounds slack to say that to a woman who just lost her child, but it was her own fault.



Why are we paying for her to get private counseling when, at no extra cost to anyone, free public services are available?




-Private sessions can be more easily monitored.
-Private sessions are likely to be more focused.
-Public sessions can be, and sometimes are only, group sessions.



I am sorry but none of those assertions are true.

A public practitioner works in a team, has particular qualifications for which they are paid accordingly, undergoes supervision and assessment and has a boss (who is also answerable to a higher figure). Each visit (and it's content) is a matter of government record

A private practitioner may work entirely alone and may be answerable for the quality of their performance to no one unless a complaint is made. Or they may rent a room in a Medical centre, which has no more control over their activities than any landlord.

Why would a Private D and A counselor be any more focused than a Public one? Indeed which do you think is more likely to drag things out to more visits?

One on One counseling is available in most community health centres (public hospitals etc) in this country. Group outpatient programs are comparatively rare except in the Private hospital system.

Again no reason why government money, if it is not to go to the woman, should go to private businesses.




Edited by hlass: 28/8/2008 11:54:20 AM

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Well that's great, that's just fuckin' great man. Now what the fuck are we supposed to do? We're in some real pretty shit now man... That's it man, game over man, game over! What the fuck are we gonna do now? What are we gonna do?

Director 
28/8/08 12:02:50 PM
Hero
Immortal


hmmm, the 'baby' bonus is supposedly to help families cope with the financial burden of having a new baby. You know, cots and prams and clothes and shit like that.

No baby, no bonus IMO.

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A challenge to a perceived consensus is a challenge to all the powers in human society, as it can take a person’s understanding of the world we live in, and flip it upside down.

lunchbox1988 
28/8/08 12:03:28 PM
Guru

Private counsellors, if paid for by the government will report to whoever they are signed to.

example;

Person A has session which is paid for by government dept X, GDX tells therapist to report any major issues and results of sessions to them but exclude information that may be unneeded or a waste of time.

Therapist then does this.

Let me ask, how many psychologists you have spoken to about your theories?

I am not a psychologist, but when exploring my options for therapy at my last job, I spoke to many and they all told me that any workplace that sends someone on a session has the right to request certain details, not all, just some and the person attending the session has to agree to this.

Also, most of the public ones, despite being free to the public, cost the government a shitload of money (which is why they don't bugger off to private practices) and as such are more likely to push for more sessions.

I have in the past spoken to public and private therapists on different occasions, on ending my sessions with the private one, was advised that coming back for a follow up in a couple of months was a good idea, but not needed.

When I did the same with a public one, was told that I would end the sessions when they saw fit, which as it was a private matter which I had already sorted out, told them they can' force me as I am not on public benefits and they can't force anything.

So, I ask you this, when you have stated your "facts" are they things that official experts on the subject matter have told you or simple assumptions?

If the latter, please stop disagreeing with me based on them.

-----
AL Gore; Finally, I get to save the Earth with deadly lasers instead of deadly slideshows!



EEEPC 1000H - 1.6GHz Atom - 2GB DDR2 667 - Ubuntu-ish
hlass 
28/8/08 12:04:04 PM
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Titan


Quote by Director
hmmm, the 'baby' bonus is supposedly to help families cope with the financial burden of having a new baby. You know, cots and prams and clothes and shit like that.

No baby, no bonus IMO.



So no "stillbirth" should attract the bonus?

-----
Well that's great, that's just fuckin' great man. Now what the fuck are we supposed to do? We're in some real pretty shit now man... That's it man, game over man, game over! What the fuck are we gonna do now? What are we gonna do?

Director 
28/8/08 12:08:07 PM
Hero
Immortal


Quote by hlass
Quote by Director
hmmm, the 'baby' bonus is supposedly to help families cope with the financial burden of having a new baby. You know, cots and prams and clothes and shit like that.

No baby, no bonus IMO.



So no "stillbirth" should attract the bonus?



Nope. Although I imagine there would be funeral expenses so maybe some kind of credit plan between the govt. and the funeral home would be a better way to go. But then why stop at new borns? If the govt. wants to give money to grieving parents on compassionate grounds, then why not a one-off if ANY child under 18 years of age dies? After all I imagine it would be more traumatic (though I wouldn't really know) losing a 10 year old than losing a new baby.

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A challenge to a perceived consensus is a challenge to all the powers in human society, as it can take a person’s understanding of the world we live in, and flip it upside down.

hlass 
28/8/08 12:09:25 PM
Hero
Titan


Quote by lunchbox1988


So, I ask you this, when you have stated your "facts" are they things that official experts on the subject matter have told you or simple assumptions?

If the latter, please stop disagreeing with me based on them.



Maybe I could ask you. In the last week how many people have you referred to D and A counseling, rehabs and detoxes? How many years have you worked in the D and A treatment industry both public and private?
They are facts. I know this because it is my job to do so.

-----
Well that's great, that's just fuckin' great man. Now what the fuck are we supposed to do? We're in some real pretty shit now man... That's it man, game over man, game over! What the fuck are we gonna do now? What are we gonna do?

SquallStrife 
28/8/08 12:11:17 PM
Titan

Quote by hlass
Quote by Director
hmmm, the 'baby' bonus is supposedly to help families cope with the financial burden of having a new baby. You know, cots and prams and clothes and shit like that.

No baby, no bonus IMO.



So no "stillbirth" should attract the bonus?



Perhaps as a consolation, the government could fund any therapy (mental or otherwise) the mother needs, rather than a cash handout. Or cover the gap if the mother is a private patient.

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lunchbox1988 
28/8/08 12:14:59 PM
Guru

Quote by hlass
Quote by lunchbox1988


So, I ask you this, when you have stated your "facts" are they things that official experts on the subject matter have told you or simple assumptions?

If the latter, please stop disagreeing with me based on them.



Maybe I could ask you. In the last week how many people have you referred to D and A counseling, rehabs and detoxes? How many years have you worked in the D and A treatment industry both public and private?
They are facts. I know this because it is my job to do so.



I have nothing to do with D and A, but as I said, private therapists seem to offer a better service for the client IMHO.

-----
AL Gore; Finally, I get to save the Earth with deadly lasers instead of deadly slideshows!



EEEPC 1000H - 1.6GHz Atom - 2GB DDR2 667 - Ubuntu-ish
hlass 
28/8/08 12:21:01 PM
Hero
Titan


Quote by lunchbox1988
Quote by hlass
Quote by lunchbox1988


So, I ask you this, when you have stated your "facts" are they things that official experts on the subject matter have told you or simple assumptions?

If the latter, please stop disagreeing with me based on them.



Maybe I could ask you. In the last week how many people have you referred to D and A counseling, rehabs and detoxes? How many years have you worked in the D and A treatment industry both public and private?
They are facts. I know this because it is my job to do so.



I have nothing to do with D and A, but as I said, private therapists seem to offer a better service for the client IMHO.



Well we will have to disagree there. Some practitioners are better than others. I would say there are a variety of reasons why public services may attract a better quality of professional, primarily that you have to be good enough to get the job (and keep it) in the first place rather than just put an ad in the paper that you are now available to see clients.

-----
Well that's great, that's just fuckin' great man. Now what the fuck are we supposed to do? We're in some real pretty shit now man... That's it man, game over man, game over! What the fuck are we gonna do now? What are we gonna do?

hlass 
28/8/08 12:21:25 PM
Hero
Titan


Quote by SquallStrife
Quote by hlass
Quote by Director
hmmm, the 'baby' bonus is supposedly to help families cope with the financial burden of having a new baby. You know, cots and prams and clothes and shit like that.

No baby, no bonus IMO.



So no "stillbirth" should attract the bonus?



Perhaps as a consolation, the government could fund any therapy (mental or otherwise) the mother needs, rather than a cash handout. Or cover the gap if the mother is a private patient.



Again why not just give it to mother instead of funding private services?
Grief counseling is already available free. Why should we be insisting she use a particular private service with government money?

-----
Well that's great, that's just fuckin' great man. Now what the fuck are we supposed to do? We're in some real pretty shit now man... That's it man, game over man, game over! What the fuck are we gonna do now? What are we gonna do?

lunchbox1988 
28/8/08 12:23:38 PM
Guru

Alright, fuck private counselling, give her no money and tell her that it is her fault it happened and then push her off to another department for free counselling.

That sound better?

-----
AL Gore; Finally, I get to save the Earth with deadly lasers instead of deadly slideshows!



EEEPC 1000H - 1.6GHz Atom - 2GB DDR2 667 - Ubuntu-ish
hlass 
28/8/08 12:26:46 PM
Hero
Titan


Quote by lunchbox1988
Alright, fuck private counselling, give her no money and tell her that it is her fault it happened and then push her off to another department for free counselling.

That sound better?



Maybe. Shall we do the same for all the women who lose pregnancies from smoking?

-----
Well that's great, that's just fuckin' great man. Now what the fuck are we supposed to do? We're in some real pretty shit now man... That's it man, game over man, game over! What the fuck are we gonna do now? What are we gonna do?

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