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Welcome to the best party in town
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chrisg
2/11/07 4:21:42 PM
SuperHero
Immortal
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:-)
I like managing networks... big global ones.... It's fun, depends on what you inherit though....
I've built a few....
The sweetest thing is when you move on and they give you a retainer to just be around, guess you did it right.... :-)
Like I said... IT is just ODD... Take one piece out and it just plain does not work...
My predeliction is to the network, because without layer one you have nothing, Zeph work mainly at the other end, and, I can't ever recall having a disagreement with him..... (might be because I'm his funnel to reimbursement, but, I rather doubt it :-) )
Specialisation is for insects, that's an RAH quote, and it applies utterly to IT.....
:-)
Cheers
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You can always tell a guy who has been troubleshooting too long - he has a shotgun in his toolkit.
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kikz
2/11/07 4:22:42 PM
Immortal
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Quote by Leonid
I'm in IT with no degree. And I earn over 6 figures.
Any other questions?
What, you earn 7 figures? ... I doubt that ;) -----
Q6600 | 4Gb PC6400 | 2 x 500Gb RAID 0 | 19" Benq FP591 + 24" Samsung 245B + 19" Dell | 8800GTS + 8400GS | Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3P | Antec P182 | Corsair HX-620 | Thermalright 120 Extreme | Vista x64
http://www.atomicf1.com
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zephyr
2/11/07 4:22:48 PM
Hero
Titan
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Quote by RaYdeX
But Uni can teach you a lot, and I can definitely see that with Coding, anybody could do it, it's not really an experience thing as much as it is knowledge.
anybody could do it? I think you're underestimating the distance between "I know the syntax for language X" and actually being able to architect complex systems or understand the theory behind how a compiler works, or how operating system design affects your software design.
And as has been said, Coding is a small part of I.T as a whole. Everyone works on different parts, and together make a whole.
Don't disparage people who don't do coding, because we're every bit as skilled and, as valid in our jobs, as you are in yours.
I never said anything like that. I worked on site tech support (without a qualification!) when I was going through uni, so I've been on both sides of this argument, which is not necessarily something everyone else here can say.
If anything, some people are disparaging software development by believing that anyone can do it if they just try hard enough. It's not that simple. -----
"It is better to be silent, and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt." (Confuscius)
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kikz
2/11/07 4:29:29 PM
Immortal
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Quote by Leonid
In all honesty, I don't know too many programmers with degrees.
In all honesty I don't know ANY profressional programmers without degrees. Now, I'm not saying they don't exist, far from it; just that I don't know them ;). I did have one mate who was a Delphi programmer who got the job fresh from highschool, but he since took up being a chrome plater (or whatever it is you call the job), when he discovered he couldn't crack the $45K barrier after 5 years on the job.
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Q6600 | 4Gb PC6400 | 2 x 500Gb RAID 0 | 19" Benq FP591 + 24" Samsung 245B + 19" Dell | 8800GTS + 8400GS | Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3P | Antec P182 | Corsair HX-620 | Thermalright 120 Extreme | Vista x64
http://www.atomicf1.com
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zephyr
2/11/07 4:31:19 PM
Hero
Titan
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Quote by elvenwhore
The thing is, though, that whilst that may be possible and it does indeed happen, it does not necessarily hold true that such a path makes for competent network managers. Degrees don't necessarily make for competent network managers, either. There are network managers who can do the job, and there are network managers who can do the job well. One path does not necessarily make more or better managers over another.
Which isn't necessarily your point :-) but I just thought I'd throw it out there because <loudHoward> it's just been a while since I said anything.</loudHoward> :-p
It is my point in a way. :-) Just replace "network manager" with "software architect" and you have my argument in a nutshell, it's just that a degree in software engineering goes a hell of a lot further than it does in other IT areas. ;-) -----
"It is better to be silent, and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt." (Confuscius)
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kikz
2/11/07 4:45:34 PM
Immortal
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Quote by chrisg
Specialisation is for insects, that's an RAH quote, and it applies utterly to IT.....
And Americans :) -----
Q6600 | 4Gb PC6400 | 2 x 500Gb RAID 0 | 19" Benq FP591 + 24" Samsung 245B + 19" Dell | 8800GTS + 8400GS | Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3P | Antec P182 | Corsair HX-620 | Thermalright 120 Extreme | Vista x64
http://www.atomicf1.com
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chrisg
2/11/07 4:48:42 PM
SuperHero
Immortal
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;-)
yup kikz..... :-)
Cheers -----
You can always tell a guy who has been troubleshooting too long - he has a shotgun in his toolkit.
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twinair
2/11/07 5:05:24 PM
Banned
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Quote by zephyr
Quote by Leonid
I'm in IT with no degree. And I earn over 6 figures.
Any other questions?
sorry, I didn't realise this was a pissing contest, i thought it was a discussion as to whether there were some careers in which a degree was actually relevant and a significant advantage...
I think you turned it into a pissing comp when you said
"I have merely pointed out that making the assertion flat out that you can work your way up, without reference to a particular career path is not accurate. "
Are you just upset because you spent so much time on a degree and people who didn't are earning more money that you?
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I've been accused of being a crude, cock sucking arsehole.
That's OK, I can take constructive criticism.
But if my grandmother ever says that again I'll kick her fucking head in.
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zephyr
2/11/07 5:22:51 PM
Hero
Titan
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Quote by twinair
Are you just upset because you spent so much time on a degree and people who didn't are earning more money that you?
If all I cared about was the money, I sure as shit wouldn't still be here in Tassie, would I? :-) -----
"It is better to be silent, and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt." (Confuscius)
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twinair
2/11/07 5:26:46 PM
Banned
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Don't get me started on Tasmanians :p
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I've been accused of being a crude, cock sucking arsehole.
That's OK, I can take constructive criticism.
But if my grandmother ever says that again I'll kick her fucking head in.
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Smiffdog
2/11/07 5:43:08 PM
Banned
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Getting a job in IT is easy.
Getting a good job in IT is the hard part though.
I left college year 11 covering IT pretert maths english and began work for a government department as a certificate 3 trainee.
Within our department most can move up do their certificate 4 in IT and take on administration jobs.
I however will move onto uni and part time IT work. -----
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gramyre
2/11/07 5:51:22 PM
Mod
SuperHero
Immortal
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I am not sure... I have been in IT on and off since punch tape.
No HSC, NO Degree, No certifications
I am currently Network Services Infrastructure Implementation Manager for a multinational TLA....But if I am hiring people I want you to have at least a CCNA and good experience with switches and routers...don't need anything else in the "paper" areas. I am also looking for non paper skills like a sense of humour, teaming skills, and a drive to improve
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And in the morning....I'll be making waffles
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Mac Dude
2/11/07 6:06:07 PM
Mod
SuperHero
Immortal
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Quote by gramyre
I am not sure... I have been in IT on and off since punch tape.
+1, though for me it was punch cards :)
I don't have a degree, but I have been continually in training. From a technical perspective, the peak of my career has been being one of 15 computer modelling software engineers within a multi-national IT company. We were charged with the responsibility of modelling monolithic and client/server apps and forecast future performance through various hardware and software upgrades.
It was a real hoot and included time studying with a couple of modelling boffins at Stamford.
Experience is important, skills are important, recognised training is important. One can compensate for another, to a degree (pun intended).
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An arrow loosed cannot be recalled to the quiver
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Hoonbernator
2/11/07 6:36:56 PM
Overlord
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Quote by Saponification
Just how easy is it to get a job in IT?
What can the average TAFE or uni IT grad expect in terms of pay, the sort of work they can get, etc?
Is it possible to get a job without any qualifications?
Are there any extra qualifications (i.e. CISCO) that can really help -- or are possibly required -- you get a job?
I got my job in an almost IT field... I say almost IT because it's for a large eBay seller.
I am a deferred (and likely never to return! No degree for me) technology uni student and got my job due to:
Management experience in Target
Warehouse experience
Forklift experience
Technology enthusiasm
Understanding hi-tech systems with relative ease.
Comfort with all things Internet.
As an eBay seller specialising in IT&T clearance, we are closer to e-retail than true IT industry. Maybe that's a side point to mention? e-retail (rapidly growing) to IT & T (no idea if it's growing...)
Extra qualifications: Management experience! Very good to have.
And NEVER be afraid to mention your hobbies on your resume, no matter how nerdy. (Synchronised swimming doesnt need to be mentioned though...)
Your hardcore Atomican qualities of overclocking, hardware modification and computer system problem solving! That shit is valuable and a good boss WILL notice your hobbies! A small to medium business will cherish your ability to sort out simple system issues.
That reminds me: be good with the Office suite, in all flavors. Learn Power Point, Excel (especially the smartArt/flowchart stuff), Word - they will also help you out.
hope this helps (and sorry, I posted with only reading the first post....)
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Efficiency is just a highly evolved form of laziness.
"Are a million people smart? Smarter than one?"
"A Man doesn't imeadiately gain my respect... He has to get down on his knees and beg for it"
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Hoonbernator
2/11/07 6:46:16 PM
Overlord
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Oh further input, actually RELEVANT to the initial discussion.
My housemate only finished his year 10 cert.
He is 24 and earning $110K + super working for Canon in the tech-help area.
Working on some friggin huge printer worth millions, he said the way he got to where he is is he ALWAYS made sure he did good work, and that he would NEVER compromise with either a) dickheads or b) idiots. He told everyone how it is all the time. Doing things the way he knew they needed to be done.
Straight to the point, giving good accurate estimations (of ETA's how to fix, when stuff will happen etc... everyone needs to do this some time in a job, so get good at guesstimating)
He got to where he is by going a little further to make sure he knew all he could on every bit of technology he touched.
Now I hear that getting a job into Canon can be much harder, and that they prefer IT degrees in applicants (particularly youngish ones like 21 yrs old. 16 to 18 yrs are cheap, so it CAN be a good foot in being the slave...)
Oh an ALWAYS do what higher bosses say. If your boss cant understand, get his boss to... it's important to make sure someone gets it right!
Edited by Hoonbernator: 2/11/2007 6:47:50 PM -----
Efficiency is just a highly evolved form of laziness.
"Are a million people smart? Smarter than one?"
"A Man doesn't imeadiately gain my respect... He has to get down on his knees and beg for it"
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Amiga4eva
2/11/07 7:59:31 PM
Hero
Titan
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I work in IT, and perform all the following as key areas of my role
- Development in VB.NET, VB6, Perl, ASP.NET, SQL
- Database schema design and administration
- Project management
- Baseline management
- Support
EDIT: And just enough COBOL to make my balls shrink....
All this for around 10,750 servers Australia wide.
I never finished high-school.
Edited by Amiga4eva: 2/11/2007 8:07:21 PM -----
How you turned my world, you precious thing
You starve and near exhaust me
Everything I've done, I've done for you
I move the stars for no one
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IllegalOperation
2/11/07 9:52:15 PM
Banned
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Well, this thread was quite the read. I don't work in IT, but I am a semi-talented amateur and so I did have a few thoughts while reading this thread.
First off, I do see Zeph's point about how the, you can start at the bottom and learn as you go argument doesn't apply to every possible specialty. But, that’s not what the initial question was. The initial question was, is it possible to get a job in IT without any paper qualifications. As we've seen from posts in this thread, the obvious answer is yes. But at the same, has as been noted, the question is a somewhat flawed one because it's such a big field.
But at the same time, it was a general question, which some people turned into a very specific one. Here's an analogy. Suppose someone ask, is it possible to become the manager of a business without having a degree. The general answer to that one is yes. I personally know plenty people who've done it. At the same time, the fact that it is generally possible, doesn't mean that it's possible in every instance. Can you become the manager of a grocery store without a business or management degree? Of course you can. Can you become the CEO of General Motors without a degree? Probably not.
To go back to IT, I think anyone who wants to get into the industry needs to think about what it is they want to do, what skills they already possess, how they best learn, etc. Some people excel in a classroom environment, others are bored to tears. Some people have the ability to figure things out on their own, others do better with a teacher leading the way.
A few years ago, my then boss’ wife took computer classes for weeks, in preparation for getting her new computer. After all of her classes, she could still barely manage to send an email. Me, if I wanted to learn a new OS, I’d just buy the OS for dummies book and learn as I go. I used that exact method to teach myself the basics of XP. It took all of one weekend and cost a hell of a lot less than all of those classes would have. Does that mean I’m any smarter than she is? No, not really. It’s just we learn in different ways.
My IT skills, such as they are, are entirely self-taught. For the most part, I manage to do whatever I want to do. Recently, I managed to cobble together enough code to get a website to do what I wanted it to do. But that doesn’t make me a programmer or a web developer, on the contrary, I know just enough about code to know that it isn’t my thing. I really don’t need to be told that I would make a lousy software engineer, I already that I would, that doesn’t mean that there aren’t other things I can do.
Here’s the main point I wanted to make in response to some of what’s been posted in this thread. I understand that there are valid points to be made that some jobs do in fact require a degree and the accompanying formal education. But at the same time, I think it’s vastly preferable to encourage people rather than to discourage them.
My family wanted me to go college. Nothing wrong with that of course. But the whole time that I was growing up, that was drilled into me. You have to have formal education and a lot of. At least high school and college, don’t rule out grad school. My grandfather told me endlessly that if I didn’t get an education, I would end up “digging ditches.” That was the basic theme, over and over, the only thing you can do is manual labor, or, join the Army. My family did not believe that to be a worthwhile career either.
Anyway, there wasn’t necessarily anything wrong with this. They certainly had the best of intentions and only wanted the best for me. But as it happened, I DIDN’T follow the high school, college, grad school path, but that path had been so thoroughly drilled into me that once I didn’t go down that road, I was left at an utter loss as to what I should do and it took me a long, long time to find something that even vaguely resembled an alternate path.
I won’t use the term IT because it is so broad, but I’ve wanted to do SOMETHING with computers/electronics for pretty much as long as I can remember. But again, I more or less believed that would mean having to go to college, which one, I didn’t want to do and two, I didn’t have the money.
A couple of years ago, I happened into chrisg on another forum and as we got to chatting, I begin to see ways that I could in fact do what I want to do, without spending years going to school. I now see what is for me, a way in. I already have a shitload of retail experience and could easily get a job in retail electronics. Some experience there, plus a certification or two, could then easily lead to an entry level support job and then, go from there. Does that mean I can go from that to doing what Zephyr does? No, probably not. Chris tells me Zeph is a “code god” and I’m sure he is, but as I’ve said, code ain’t my game anyway. :)
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Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.
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Chaos.Lady
2/11/07 9:56:03 PM
SuperHero
Titan
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Quote by zephyr
I never said anything like that. I worked on site tech support (without a qualification!) when I was going through uni, so I've been on both sides of this argument, which is not necessarily something everyone else here can say.
Just 'cause it seems to be "pick on zeph" time, I said that I'd worked both sides of the argument. :P
I've been paid a 6 figure salary (and a good one at that) to work in IT without a degree.
But I wouldn't be going back to get one now if I didn't believe it was necessary for me to grow in my chosen field. -----
In the light universe I have been darkness. Perhaps in the dark zone I can be light...
Just a traveller, upon the sea,
Of time, of life, of fate's wide wheel
Just a traveller, in this mystery
The me I am, is all that's real to me...<
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Scouse Git
2/11/07 10:13:19 PM
Banned
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Quote by kikz
Quote by Leonid
In all honesty, I don't know too many programmers with degrees.
In all honesty I don't know ANY profressional programmers without degrees. Now, I'm not saying they don't exist, far from it; just that I don't know them ;). I did have one mate who was a Delphi programmer who got the job fresh from highschool, but he since took up being a chrome plater (or whatever it is you call the job), when he discovered he couldn't crack the $45K barrier after 5 years on the job.
I know a few. -----
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Catmosphere
2/11/07 10:23:19 PM
Guru
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I know a number of people who work at Silverbrook - one of whom has say in who is hired occasionally.
His comment is that they must have PhDs and be really good coders. As he used to lecture in comp sci and maths and has worked in private research R&D for a while his definition of what makes a good coder would be more harsh than most.
Silverbrookers get headhunted by such as Microsoft/Google. They are renumerated well above 100k.
His other comment is that if anyone puts down qualifications other than things like a PhD, then he is less likely to consider them. A degree - and especially a PhD - is meant to mean you can teach yourself whatever. Silverbrook is not a place where you would get to by starting your working life starting in helldesk is - it's R&D and very picky.
In contrast I look at my brother - 3rd level citrix support for a bank - earning 3x what I do. I have a degree and he doesn't. Basically at the end of the day it's who you know, what you know and how good you are. The upper upper echelons though are a different kettle of fish. With scarily bright people who are absolutely amazing academically.
(On of them though did still get me to post computer hardware questions her because it's not their field of expertise and they wanted a quick answer from experienced people here - they then give me a detailed description of what's happening down at machine code level. :) ) -----
,esquire. WOOT!!!!
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