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smadge1
2/11/07 10:34:55 AM
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Some people are saying that IT support is soon going to be an unskilled position, as the general population increases their IT skills.
This is sad, but I can see some truth in it.
I'm just trying to stay one step ahead of the general populace. -----
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kikz
2/11/07 10:38:25 AM
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Quote by zephyr
As the IT industry matures, there's going to be a more of a divergence between which roles do need degrees, and which ones don't. These kind of arguments will run back and forwards forever when everyone has their own definition of what "IT" is :-)
This man speaks the wisdom! Even 10 years ago (when I went through uni) IT was a very generic course. At the end, I saw more specific/tailored degrees poping up, such as Information Environments, Game development degrees, etc. It was worse for some of my collegaues, where all there was a degree in Science with a major in Comptuer Science. That was before InfTech degrees or Software Engineering specialisations in Engineering, or any of the more specialised awards available now. -----
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iamthemaxx
2/11/07 10:40:30 AM
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Quote by Saponification
Just how easy is it to get a job in IT?
Like any job if you know someone then you can get in easy.
Otherwise you will most likely need to start as a shit kicker on helpdesk.
What can the average TAFE or uni IT grad expect in terms of pay, the sort of work they can get, etc?
Depends on the qualifications. CCNA degree type grads can get a pretty decent base sysadmin job for about $40K+
Is it possible to get a job without any qualifications?
Yes, I got my foot in the door with just my self taught skills, but it was a phone monkey on helpdesk.
Are there any extra qualifications (i.e. CISCO) that can really help -- or are possibly required -- you get a job?
The more qualifications you have the better chance you have obviously. You don't need qualifications if you start at the bottom.
eg I started as a phone monkey 4 years ago and now I manage a small helpdesk and also do unix sysadmin (two in one job).
A CCNA will get you into most basic networking/sysadmin positions. -----
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stadl
2/11/07 10:42:14 AM
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Quote by smadge1
Some people are saying that IT support is soon going to be an unskilled position, as the general population increases their IT skills.
This is sad, but I can see some truth in it.
I'm just trying to stay one step ahead of the general populace.
I call bullshit on that.
By definitiion support people need to be more aware than the general populace.
Where once upon a time, the general populace needed help getting a printer working or pluggin in a USB mouse, now they might need help with setting up routers etc. -----
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zephyr
2/11/07 10:43:37 AM
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Quote by iamthemaxx You don't need qualifications if you start at the bottom.
argh! People! For the love of god!
You can't start at the bottom and work your way up in every role! I'd rather not front up to the hospital and hear the surgeon say "yea, I started out as an orderly changing bedpans, but hey, i worked my way up by learning on the job and look at me now, a neurosurgeon!"
Saying you want to go into "IT" is as vague as saying you want to go into health care. You can say that but straight away someone will say "fine, what do you want to become, surgeon, doctor, nurse, ambo, administrator, pharmacist?"
Why aren't we having this conversation about IT?!
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kikz
2/11/07 10:47:50 AM
Immortal
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Quote by zephyr
Quote by iamthemaxx You don't need qualifications if you start at the bottom.
argh! People! For the love of god!
You can't start at the bottom and work your way up in every role! I'd rather not front up to the hospital and hear the surgeon say "yea, I started out as an orderly changing bedpans, but hey, i worked my way up by learning on the job and look at me now, a neurosurgeon!"
Saying you want to go into "IT" is as vague as saying you want to go into health care. You can say that but straight away someone will say "fine, what do you want to become, surgeon, doctor, nurse, ambo, administrator, pharmacist?"
Why aren't we having this conversation about IT?!
Any idiot can apply a band-aid and some detol :p -----
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psyckle
2/11/07 10:49:01 AM
Champion
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I graduated with a B Com (Hons) but found myself leaving the business type roles and gravitating more and more towards IT role - my first being a business analyst with a large bank in Sydney. That developed into a technical analyst role, which became a support/implementation role (system, hardware and software). I then left Sydney for Perth for a smaller company and now I'm a business consultant, although in such a small company there are big elements of software and system testing, implementation and project management.
I daresay my path is not a conventional one. Alot of the people I have worked with through my career have had tertiary (uni and TAFE) IT qualifications, although the people that were REALLY good at their jobs knew that professional qualifications and experience would get them through any hard spots. -----
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zephyr
2/11/07 10:53:47 AM
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Quote by kikz
Any idiot can apply a band-aid and some detol :p
or write an ASP.net application :P -----
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kikz
2/11/07 11:36:30 AM
Immortal
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Quote by zephyr
Quote by kikz
Any idiot can apply a band-aid and some detol :p
or write an ASP.net application :P
Of course, once a gifted designer has done all the hard stuff :D -----
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elvenwhore
2/11/07 11:48:20 AM
Guru
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Ok, this is from the point of view of network engineering and administration...
Just how easy is it to get a job in IT?
Wow, that can depend on so many things. Getting a job in IT might not be so difficult, but getting the job you want can be.
The general path I see people taking to get into the network administration side is via the helpdesk or similar support roles, and then moving up the chain in terms of experience and roles. It's possible there are more support jobs because these are less specialised roles.
What can the average TAFE or uni IT grad expect in terms of pay, the sort of work they can get, etc?
That's a tough question. I've seen L1/2 helpdesk roles (which I wouldn't say requires a degree or cert) advertised from anywhere between $30K/year to $55K/year depending on the size of the organisation and the geographic location of the role.
Are there any extra qualifications (i.e. CISCO) that can really help -- or are possibly required -- you get a job?
It largely depends on the role and the organisation. Some of the more specialised roles do require exposure to certain technologies - now, whether that requires you to demonstrate you have experience with the technology or some more formal qualifications can depend on the organisation itself. Generally additional qualifications are advantageous, if not from a personal knowledge point of view then for demonstrating to potential employers you have the required exposure. -----
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superfireydave
2/11/07 11:53:15 AM
Guru
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From experience, there's a lot of people who do web design [I myself have been asked numerous times from family friends etc] whilst at Uni, and if you're decent at it there's no real shortage of what you can do.
It's a bit like anything, if you're good at it there's something for you. If you suck a lot at it, you're probably not too likely to get a good job in that field. -----
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St0ne_typhoon
2/11/07 12:01:29 PM
Guru
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Quote by Gharphield
Quote by Chaos.Lady
IT has become very centralised into the major cities. Trying to get a job in IT is almost impossible unless you live in or near a major centre (ie large city). Telecommuting is still not as widespread as it should be.
As has been said, degrees are required if you want any sort of choice in the work you do, and finding work without a degree is becoming increasingly impossible.
That's not exactly true though. No one I'm working with here has a degree, and yes this is high level IT work not fixing up a schools Network.
Gee thanks Garph. -----
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Gharphield
2/11/07 12:05:24 PM
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Quote by zephyr
Quote by Gharphield
Many years ago this may have been the case, and to say I'm lucky as well as the team of 20 that I work with are lucky isn't exactly true.
And I can point to plenty of places where you'll find 20 software developers with at least 20 degrees between them. It is going to vary depending on what role you're talking about!
I've worked with 1 guy who had a double degree ... he was ok, nothing special. But 1 guy out of the 30 or so that have been through here is a small percentage.
If you're talking about support roles, I dunno how to break it to you, but most people don't study 3-5 years and aspire to go into a support position. :-)
Generally it's those who scrape through the degree and aren't cut out for grad positions that end up in those roles. Note, I said "generally".
IMO it seems that more and more places are valuing other qualities over a piece of paper.
I think there are a lot of other qualities that can amount to more than just your paper qualifications too. It's kind of like the "100 point ID check" where certain forms of ID are worth more than others. Each employer is going to have their own set of rankings in terms of qualifications, people skills, plays well with others, etc that will determine how they fit the role.
Now don't get me wrong that piece of paper can help you out immensly but I still think that it's becoming less and less important, and I don't consider myself lucky that I'm doing 3rd level support now, I consider it a result of hard work.
In IT, it's hard to say that a degree is less important, considering we've only had them for a generation really.
It's like back in the days when doctors were starting to emerge, I'm sure there were plenty of barber-surgeons running around saying "you don't need to study at university to do what we do" and that was true if you counted "what we do" as sawing off limbs that don't work any more.
These days you don't pop down to the barber for "a short back and sides and can you please amputate this gangrenous leg for me?"
As the IT industry matures, there's going to be a more of a divergence between which roles do need degrees, and which ones don't. These kind of arguments will run back and forwards forever when everyone has their own definition of what "IT" is :-)
Support role? 3rd level support is pretty much System Admins, Comms specialists, Backup Engineers, SAN Administrators.
All of them don't have any quals. The 1 person I talked about was a uni support admin. He left for bigger / better things and now we have an amazing unix support guy ... yes the guy was born to work in unix but he doesn't have any quals, he's just a smart guy who loves his computers.
If you're thinking support such as Helldesk or Desktop then yes you don't very many quals, but anything will help.
Since I've worked in this industry (granted I've only worked in 2 cities) I can say that the growing trend is that people are moving away from degree's and go for that experienced kid who's worked here and there supporting small business's.
Now I can't tell you where I'm working now (sorry I'm not allowed) but I can tell you that it's a pretty damn important place with a high level of server support.
I can tell you about the person I took over from, he's now doing Backup Administration at the TAX Dept here in Canberra and pretty much works in an environment about 8 times the size of what I'm doing. And no, he doesn't have any quals at all, just a good work ethic with a background that had him started out in Helpdesk.
So this is how I've come to my conclusion, what my bosses have also said to me (all my bosses mind you) and my experience for the past 5 or so years.
No I didn't just walk into a Sys Admin or 3rd level support (read: 3rd level support is pretty much server support and 1st level support is Helpdesk, just for clarification) I had to work hard to get there, I opted to learn in minor roles and move up, not study for years on end. Either one way is completely up to the person and how they prefer to learn, I in no way have ever considered myself lucky for where I am now or where I'll be in the future. -----
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Gharphield
2/11/07 12:06:08 PM
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Quote by St0ne_typhoon
Quote by Gharphield
Quote by Chaos.Lady
IT has become very centralised into the major cities. Trying to get a job in IT is almost impossible unless you live in or near a major centre (ie large city). Telecommuting is still not as widespread as it should be.
As has been said, degrees are required if you want any sort of choice in the work you do, and finding work without a degree is becoming increasingly impossible.
That's not exactly true though. No one I'm working with here has a degree, and yes this is high level IT work not fixing up a schools Network.
Gee thanks Garph.
Hey man its where I started!
EDIT:
zephyr - IT is a general term because a lot of people start out in a general IT job i.e. Helldesk and or Desktop Support.
From there you can move into comms, programming, unix admin, backup admin, software engineering, etc, etc, etc we get this.
Starting from the bottom (I've mentioned what these are do I really need to keep typing it?) allows you time and exposure to these other roles so you can decide from there where you'd like to head too.
I for one would like to head into SAN Engineering, so I think I'll be sticking around in the storage team.
We're not saying that a qualification is a waste of time. My Cert 4 in Client Support I got from TAFE (IMO) is a piece of paper, I could do that stuff before I went there, but after I did I now had a bit of paper to say I could. For other people in my class I'm sure they got a lot more then I did from it and are on par with what I knew ... that's just difference in people and how people learn.
Edited by Gharphield: 2/11/2007 12:09:50 PM -----
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dave_blob
2/11/07 12:21:27 PM
Champion
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Quote by Gharphield
zephyr - IT is a general term because a lot of people start out in a general IT job i.e. Helldesk and or Desktop Support.
From there you can move into comms, programming, unix admin, backup admin, software engineering, etc, etc, etc we get this.
Starting from the bottom (I've mentioned what these are do I really need to keep typing it?) allows you time and exposure to these other roles so you can decide from there where you'd like to head too.
Edited by Gharphield: 2/11/2007 12:09:50 PM
I think zeph's point is that no matter how much bottom-up experience you get, thats just not going to be enough to get high in certain roles such as software engineering. You need to learn all the theory to programming, not just what words do what in VB6. There's fundamental concepts and ideas that are not really conducive to iterative learning through experiance. And to do that you need to go to school, pretty much, or be extremely good at self-teaching.
There's a massive difference between knowing how to use a particular language, and being a good Software Engineer.
Edited by dave_blob: 2/11/2007 12:22:47 PM -----
Your comeback shames me
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NeoDaemon69
2/11/07 12:24:11 PM
Guru
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Just how easy is it to get a job in IT?
I've found it relatively easy providing you are willing to put in the work the get the job you want.
What can the average TAFE or uni IT grad expect in terms of pay, the sort of work they can get, etc?
Average TAFE: $30k (based on the last guy we employed who only had TAFE cert)
Uni Grad: Depending on experience $40k-ish
Is it possible to get a job without any qualifications?
Yes it is possible but in the IT Sector it does make it difficult to choose a candidate who has no qualifications. Then again it can come down to experience but the qualifications can and do go a long way towards helping you land the job.
Are there any extra qualifications (i.e. CISCO) that can really help -- or are possibly required -- you get a job?
IMO This depends on the role and company. Where I work if you were to apply for an IT role Cisco and/or Server 2k3/Outlook/SQL Training/Qualification would be looked upon quite nicely and would have some weight in the final decision of the applicant. -----
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kikz
2/11/07 12:26:23 PM
Immortal
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Quote by dave_blob
I think zeph's point is that no matter how much bottom-up experience you get, thats just not going to be enough to get high in certain roles such as software engineering. You need to learn all the theory to programming, not just what words do what in VB6.
Ah fuck. That's what I'm doing wrong :( -----
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zephyr
2/11/07 12:38:35 PM
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Quote by Gharphield
zephyr - IT is a general term because a lot of people start out in a general IT job i.e. Helldesk and or Desktop Support.
From there you can move into comms, programming, unix admin, backup admin, software engineering, etc, etc, etc we get this.
Starting from the bottom (I've mentioned what these are do I really need to keep typing it?) allows you time and exposure to these other roles so you can decide from there where you'd like to head too.
working your way up from help desk to being a software engineer without any theoretical study makes for really crappy software engineers.
Let's try another analogy: You don't work your way up from being a welder or concreter working on a bridge to designing bridges without studying engineering first.
Sure you might think you know how to build a bridge, that doesn't mean you know how to design one.
Same applies with software: just because you use it and know a bit of Visual Basic or something doesn't mean you can call yourself a software engineer. -----
"It is better to be silent, and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt." (Confuscius)
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iamthemaxx
2/11/07 12:40:23 PM
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Quote by zephyr
Quote by iamthemaxx You don't need qualifications if you start at the bottom.
argh! People! For the love of god!
You can't start at the bottom and work your way up in every role! I'd rather not front up to the hospital and hear the surgeon say "yea, I started out as an orderly changing bedpans, but hey, i worked my way up by learning on the job and look at me now, a neurosurgeon!"
Saying you want to go into "IT" is as vague as saying you want to go into health care. You can say that but straight away someone will say "fine, what do you want to become, surgeon, doctor, nurse, ambo, administrator, pharmacist?"
Why aren't we having this conversation about IT?!
Um, did I say you could for every role? No. Did you read my example? Doesn't look like it.
While my comment was rather broad I kinda thought that once you read my specific experience you would realise that it applies to me.
And if ecommerce systems support isn't IT then what industry am I in then? -----
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RaYdeX
2/11/07 12:49:30 PM
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I can see Zephs point.
And I know for a fact that there are some larger companies that will not hire you unless you have a degree, even for basic roles.
But those days are archaic and coming to an end.
I'm 22, I have no Government certified qualifications what-so-ever.
I have several vendor specific qualifications now, such as Pointsec, VMware and IBM-ISS.
I'm working in Canberra, and with nothing but experience and good referees, I've managed to net myself a nice job. Technically, I guess yes, it's still a "support role" but I do everything from network admin, to desktop support through all levels.
The fact is, that I.T has become such a wide and wonderful area, that if you want a job, and your motivated enough to learn your role, you can get a job.
Likening it to a Doctor is rubbish.
I've worked with People with all sorts of fancy degrees and qualifications, some have been awesome. Some didn't know what *.jar file was, or how to find out what one was.
Experience, is worth more per arbitrary measurement, than a degree is.
And that's a fact for anyone wanting to break into the I.T industry, on any level.
These days, an average job after a degree will see you earning sub $40k.
I'm earning a good bit more than $40k, and I'm the same age as most Uni graduates.
I have the ability to earn vastly more. -----
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