Dreadnought
3/11/07 12:08:53 AM
Guru
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Well this thread has certainly been a real eye opener for me and couldn't have come at a better time. Just this week the company that I work for has gone into voluntary liquidation and whilst I am fairly confident that I will come through the administration process with my position intact it got me thinking that maybe it was time to upgrade my security qualifications or change careers.
IT has always been the industry that I thought id like to get into specifically the Network administration, Hardware and desktop support side of things. So any suggestions on what courses I should do? I was considering doing MCSE but after reading the thread it appears the the CCNA might be a better option.
My other option would be to upgrade my security qualifications to a Diploma of Risk Management which would enable me to become a Security consultant and risk manager. The advantage with this is that I already work in the industry and have considerable front line experience however the opportunities for advancement in this part of the industry aren't as bountiful as they are in the I.T. industry and it might take me a while to get a position after qualifying. -----
Bite my shiny metal ass!!
Member of the At0mic Metal Militia \m/
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chrisg
3/11/07 8:38:35 AM
SuperHero
Immortal
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:-)
I'm going to sound elitist or something but CCNA is a walk in the part.
At Networkers, I didn't go this year, too busy, they usually offer CCNA on-line, take the exam get the certificate.
One year a half dozen of us raced to see who could fdinish it first and who could get the top score.
Everyone of us was above 90% and within a minute of each other in finishing - I came second, beaten by a full-time Cisco engineer :-)
CCIE is different, I've seen very seasoned engineers tremble before taking that one - one guy I know who once ran a huge european network and whom I call on when I'm stumped literally ran from the exam.
Half of that is the bloated piece of crap that IOS has become however.
I don't really know what if any certificates to recommend to be honest, but I know what I would do as a first pass, go buy a cheap second hand Cisco router and.... play...
Zeph can correct me if I'm wrong, but, uni theory aside, I think that is how he learned Ciscoese when I sent him an old, 2500 I think it was.... :-)
The long story short is that the field is maturing and decent degree courses now exist and HR looks for that, but, nothing beats experience.
I once employed a Waterloo graduate (Waterloo runs a multi-discipline cooperative approach course and a lot of grads wind up at MS) it was possibly my worst hire ever. He knew it all, he couldn't apply it.....
*Shrug* might explain Vista..... :-)
Cheers
Edited by chrisg: 3/11/2007 8:38:59 AM -----
You can always tell a guy who has been troubleshooting too long - he has a shotgun in his toolkit.
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twinair
3/11/07 8:44:52 AM
Banned
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Quote by chrisg
Half of that is the bloated piece of crap that IOS has become however.
This is because Cisco have outsourced their code cutting to China.
-----
I've been accused of being a crude, cock sucking arsehole.
That's OK, I can take constructive criticism.
But if my grandmother ever says that again I'll kick her fucking head in.
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chrisg
3/11/07 9:11:50 AM
SuperHero
Immortal
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:-)
Hmm.....
it's been bloated for years, needs a re-write, oh, wait, Jupiter and Extreme and Foundry already did that :-)
Cheers -----
You can always tell a guy who has been troubleshooting too long - he has a shotgun in his toolkit.
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twinair
3/11/07 9:25:38 AM
Banned
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The way I see it is flexible.
Not so much bloated.
But I aint not networking expert, let alone Cisco.
That's what freinds are for :)
Edit: Maybe I should work in sales :p
Edited by twinair: 3/11/2007 09:30:42 AM -----
I've been accused of being a crude, cock sucking arsehole.
That's OK, I can take constructive criticism.
But if my grandmother ever says that again I'll kick her fucking head in.
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chrisg
3/11/07 11:54:42 AM
SuperHero
Immortal
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:-)
It's been hacked and tacked for about 18 years or more now... And never been cleaned up, it's a bit of a mess really.....The much younger OS' of those brands I mentioned are far cleaner and easier to use.
Only one of my IT jobs is sales, one other is contract network trouble-shooting and two others are as CTO....
Yes, I know, I'm nucking futs.... :-)
Cheers
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You can always tell a guy who has been troubleshooting too long - he has a shotgun in his toolkit.
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Dreadnought
3/11/07 8:18:50 PM
Guru
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Hmm...You've given somthing think about chrisg and I think that I might just do as you suggest and pick up an old Cisco router to muck around with. At least then I can get a feel for the work and decide if I really want to do it before I lay out the coin to get the certifications. -----
Bite my shiny metal ass!!
Member of the At0mic Metal Militia \m/
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kikz
3/11/07 8:52:42 PM
Immortal
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It seems to me that people here believe that if you go to university and graduate, you are automatically qualified for the role, like it's a production line. Perhaps it should be and certainly everyone that graduates should know enough theory to do the work. This isn't a problem isolated to IT. Not in my experience at leat. I've known students studing education that got top marks, had GPA's over 6.5 where theory was corncerned (shared a house with one for 12 months) yet come prace time got an S3 (the lowest possible pass mark).
The way I see it is, in the software branch of IT, the theory is more important than three years of experience and never learning the theory, as far as a career is concerned (and developing quality software).
Just to say it again: Going to university doesn't gaurantee that someone can actually do the job.
The can be used be either side of the argument :)
EDIT: People who complete an IT degree but are just there to collect some paper, aren't likely to know there stuff. But there are, I reckon, about 20% of students who are really into it. They're studying because they love it. They're the ones that end up getting decent jobs too.
These people might just be able to study enough on their own, but really, university is a great place to ensure you get just about all you need to know. It makes the job of learning what needs to be known easier, and that's why I believe (for programming at least) people really should go to uni. :)
Edited by kikz: 3/11/2007 08:57:29 PM -----
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wilsontc
3/11/07 9:14:12 PM
Guru
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I would just like to add two points.
First of all, Kikz point that those who study because they enjoy it do get the good jobs. Passion and a willingness to learn is so, so important for any job, let alone IT where we all have to stay ahead of the curve. If you don't enjoy what you do, you won't do it well. Which brings me onto my next point.
"Don't do a half-job Harry". A colleague and I used joke about "doing a Harry" - I have no idea where the name came from, but the point stands. Put your best effort in, and finish a job. Don't make excuses about why it doesn't work, get it working, whatever you have to do. As has been said, this often means unpaid hours :( But at least you can take some pride in what you do, and this is equally as important.
Finally, the best way to get a job is to polish up on those 'soft' skills. Make a good impression, show them that you can fit in well. It might be a stereotype, but most people in IT don't exactly have a winning personality. Perfectly nice, just a little socially inept. These types rarely get the higher paid manageriel positions, which may or may not be what you want to do.
Regardless of the discipline, at the high end, you have to get results. If you don't have that 'can do' attitude, you won't get a look in, regardless of education or experience. -----
Quote by Squidy
Quote by chrisg
You look and you look and you look, then one day bingo!!!
I knew you were fucking old but... picking bitches up at Bingo?? Come on man
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To put it simply in my area theres many ways you can go:
A certificate/diploma course or traineeship is more for someone whos going in one direction in IT.
Its like a short practical way to get into the key field you wish to work with in IT in the shortest and cheapest time possible.
A degree probably offers more variety and a broader entry into IT although takes longer and costs more.
Down here it usually boils down to degrees vs work experience in the field.
I'm aiming to get all my certs and some degrees as well so I can have the best of both rather then someone who moves straight out of the classroom.
Programming etc doesn't need a degree theres certificates and diplomas that can also offer that.
Edited by Smiffdog: 3/11/2007 9:22:56 PM -----
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gramyre
3/11/07 9:44:38 PM
Mod
SuperHero
Immortal
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Jeeze some cock stroking going on there chrisg, steady on.
A CCNA is a prerequisite for a CCIE (or any of the other cisco specialised certifications) it isn't meant to be some huge deal, just a piece of paper that when you show me you have it I will be more inclined to hire you because I can see that you have a basic understanding of switches and routers.
I have interviewed CCIEs who have no idea past the theoretical as well. Might show you can study (and yes I have CCIEs in my team) but I want to know you can do the basics at the minimum. The best person for the job is not necessarily the most certified, and it certainly is not the person with no ability to interact with people on their level. -----
And in the morning....I'll be making waffles
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PC FREAK
22/1/08 2:59:18 AM
Guru
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Its interesting that people here recommend that people get a degree under there belt. After reading the article that sap wrote i went searching for information on what a person whos looking to specialise in Networks (note: thats what interests me most at this point) and found this thread on girlpool (not the best source but still) which tells a guy asking about what he should do next, in order to get into Network Engineering.
Basically everyone tells him that IT is a pointless degree :/.
(source: http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies-archive.cfm/464247.html)
To be honest im more likely to trust people here on there opinions of the market then those on whirlpool. However i still wanna study regardless of whether experience is the main factor. Purely because ill have fun hopfully learning about IT not just the hardware sides of things but the industry, ill learn about areas outside of what my initial interests are and most likely i will mature in 3 years hopfully for the better into a better perspective employee.
EDIT: Eek i just bumped :/
Edited by PC FREAK: 22/1/2008 03:00:54 AM -----
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morris
22/1/08 3:10:08 AM
Mod
SuperHero
Immortal
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Sap did indeed write an article and it can be discussed here
http://www.atomicmpc.com.au/article.asp?CIID=101526
Locking the thread. No need for more bumps. -----
Until the daymoon-rise
Call your number wishing I could make amends
And I'm caught in a space between my head and my face again
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