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Saponification
2/11/07 7:20:23 AM
SuperHero
Immortal
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Yes, atomic.edu needs you again. I'm doing a piece on the state of the IT industry re: employment in Australia atm. So ...
Just how easy is it to get a job in IT?
What can the average TAFE or uni IT grad expect in terms of pay, the sort of work they can get, etc?
Is it possible to get a job without any qualifications?
Are there any extra qualifications (i.e. CISCO) that can really help -- or are possibly required -- you get a job?
Thanks. -----
Nah, yo, it ain't like that. Look, pawns, man, in the game, they get capped quick. They be out the game early.
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Scouse Git
2/11/07 7:32:52 AM
Banned
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Why don't you do an article on the IT 'skills shortage' and why so many IT workers actually work in other fields?
A Sap expose', so to speak. -----
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kikz
2/11/07 7:38:04 AM
Immortal
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IT being such a diverse field, I better give context to my answers. I'm only answering from the context of software development and the services and skills that support that process (including system admin and network admin).
Just how easy it is to get a job in IT can vary depending on your experience and ability (note the two don't neccessarily go hand in hand). There's currently an ongoing demand for people with varied IT skills, from Project Management of IT projects, through to support staff.
Getting a job is most importantly about knowing what you're talking about. Degrees certainly do help, and in the case of graduates and people trying to get into the business, it's in my opinion almost a neccessity. TAFE awards will also get you in, but I believe the scope for career development may not be as high. That said, once you're in, you're in and how you progress professionally is all about how much effort you put in to keeping up with the current state of the art.
Personally, I think the average graduate won't get much. At best they'll get an average job ;-). The sorts of roles they can expect though are entry level roles across the variety of positions available, be they support, development, database etc roles.
I believe it's possible to get a job with no qualifications. I worked fulltime as a programmer while studying IT. I personally wouldn't employ someone without at least a CERT IV, but then I work in business where software saves (or ends) lives.
I'm a strong advocate of certification (if you're going to work with Microsoft products, but it probably holds across the board). Certification says to an employer "Hey I know to use product X so you can expect me to hit the ground running". It's not always the case though and I have come across potential employees that claim to be MCSD's (Microsoft Certified Solution Developers, the highest developer cert, until MS introduced their new scheme late last year) yet can't write basic code. I wouldn't say certifications are required always, but I'm sure there would be some employers that require certs from their employees.
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Q6600 | 4Gb PC6400 | 2 x 500Gb RAID 0 | 19" + 24" + 19" | 8800GTS + 8400GS | Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3P | Antec P182 | Corsair HX-620 | Thermalright 120 Extreme | Vista x64
http://www.atomicf1.com
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Gharphield
2/11/07 7:41:42 AM
Mod
Hero
Immortal
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A few questions there but I'll answer them to the best of my ability.
The eae of getting a job in IT is pretty easy, provided there is actually work around (i.e. you live in Sydney or Canberra or Melbourne where there's shitloads of jobs!).
Canberra is pretty damn easy because of the massive skills shortage.
How much pay can you get? Well I worked with someone who's earning over 6 figures (base wage) and he never went to uni or TAFE. I personally went to TAFE and walked into a few different roles.
In an enterprise environment I was able to walk right into a Desktop Support role, I've since moved on from there to Backup Administration / Engineer.
The thing with qualifications is that it can dertermine where abouts you'd like to start in IT. Someone with a Cert 4 from TAFE can't exactly walk into a huge environment and take up 3rd level support (servers, etc) but someone with a Degree from Uni should be able to. -----
Wakka wakka wakka wakka *FRUIT*
Lex Talionis
I'm not being aggressive, I'm just being dominant.
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Catmosphere
2/11/07 7:51:47 AM
Guru
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I guess you are probably not including telecommunications in IT?
These days the line is becoming very blury as we get "VOIP" on the backbone. I'm seeing what used to be transmission gear being used as the switch - everything's packetised. Fasinating to watch the change over the last few years. Means a vast shift in skills needed to design, optimise and maintain.
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,esquire. WOOT!!!!
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Chaos.Lady
2/11/07 8:06:46 AM
SuperHero
Titan
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IT has become very centralised into the major cities. Trying to get a job in IT is almost impossible unless you live in or near a major centre (ie large city). Telecommuting is still not as widespread as it should be.
As has been said, degrees are required if you want any sort of choice in the work you do, and finding work without a degree is becoming increasingly impossible. -----
In the light universe I have been darkness. Perhaps in the dark zone I can be light...
Just a traveller, upon the sea,
Of time, of life, of fate's wide wheel
Just a traveller, in this mystery
The me I am, is all that's real to me...<
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Gharphield
2/11/07 8:12:11 AM
Mod
Hero
Immortal
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Quote by Chaos.Lady
IT has become very centralised into the major cities. Trying to get a job in IT is almost impossible unless you live in or near a major centre (ie large city). Telecommuting is still not as widespread as it should be.
As has been said, degrees are required if you want any sort of choice in the work you do, and finding work without a degree is becoming increasingly impossible.
That's not exactly true though. No one I'm working with here has a degree, and yes this is high level IT work not fixing up a schools Network. -----
Wakka wakka wakka wakka *FRUIT*
Lex Talionis
I'm not being aggressive, I'm just being dominant.
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smadge1
2/11/07 8:39:37 AM
Immortal
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I tried doing two different IT diplomas, but unfortunately, neither really caught my imagination. I learnt a lot of stuff, but I got the feeling that they have a lot of filler.
I've only got one qualification now, internal to my organisation, but it's a start. (I've been told to think of it as an MCP, but on our installed environment)
Edited by smadge1: 2/11/2007 08:44:07 AM -----
"Chopper Dave, we have Uh-oh, over"
"Attention on Deck, Uh Oh, Uh Oh, Uh Oh..." "UH OH!!!"
http://geocline.net/ *Who Is Smadge?*
http://caturday.roflcat.net/ *Caturday!*
17938
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Chaos.Lady
2/11/07 8:49:05 AM
SuperHero
Titan
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Quote by Gharphield
Quote by Chaos.Lady
IT has become very centralised into the major cities. Trying to get a job in IT is almost impossible unless you live in or near a major centre (ie large city). Telecommuting is still not as widespread as it should be.
As has been said, degrees are required if you want any sort of choice in the work you do, and finding work without a degree is becoming increasingly impossible.
That's not exactly true though. No one I'm working with here has a degree, and yes this is high level IT work not fixing up a schools Network.
Then you are quite lucky. I didn't say it was impossible yet, just that it's becoming increasingly impossible.
And it also depends very much on what you do. Support is easier, project and other managment extremely difficult. Programming next to impossible. Web development difficult, database admin extremely difficult. -----
In the light universe I have been darkness. Perhaps in the dark zone I can be light...
Just a traveller, upon the sea,
Of time, of life, of fate's wide wheel
Just a traveller, in this mystery
The me I am, is all that's real to me...<
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smadge1
2/11/07 8:55:04 AM
Immortal
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Quote by Chaos.Lady
And it also depends very much on what you do. Support is easier, project and other managment extremely difficult. Programming next to impossible. Web development difficult, database admin extremely difficult.
that's quite obvious. I work mainly in support, it's work I can do. but a lot of that backend stuff is difficult to comprehend, and there's no way I suggest anyone walk into that without several years of study.
Support is what I do, and I love it. it doesn't get me the big bucks, but that doesn't bother me. -----
"Chopper Dave, we have Uh-oh, over"
"Attention on Deck, Uh Oh, Uh Oh, Uh Oh..." "UH OH!!!"
http://geocline.net/ *Who Is Smadge?*
http://caturday.roflcat.net/ *Caturday!*
17938
postcount +1
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RaYdeX
2/11/07 9:03:11 AM
Titan
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Well, I work in Canberra too. There is definitely a skill shortage.
I think the trick for young players here is, that you need to choose something you want to specialise in.
TAFE/Uni are both on much the same level as far as education goes for I.T. A Degree will look really really good on your resume, and should you be up against someone with the same skills etc as you, only you have a degree they don't, you'll more than likely get the job.
Though a TAFE Cert IV will easily walk you into any entry level I.T job in the Government or Private sectors.
The main thing with I.T is to start small, and strive to make something more of yourself. Most places give you plenty of opportunity to up skill, or at least move into better positions if you attain the required skills.
There are a LOT of "Non Government" training courses and certifications to be gained. an MCSE (Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer) for instance, is a very very good cert to have. Courses can cost several thousand dollars, but it's almost a necessity to get into network/systems admin.
An MCSE is a way of specialising, but there are lots of other courses out there, and quite often, if you get your foot in the door with the right company, and show that you could help the company by getting certain qualifications, then they will often pay, or give you time off for study. Which is invaluable. -----
"We don't need no education "
Yes you do; you've just used a double negative.
Hung-Su - "What the hell!?!? Vagina isn't a word in my dictionary!"
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kikz
2/11/07 9:09:21 AM
Immortal
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Quote by Gharphield
Quote by Chaos.Lady
IT has become very centralised into the major cities. Trying to get a job in IT is almost impossible unless you live in or near a major centre (ie large city). Telecommuting is still not as widespread as it should be.
As has been said, degrees are required if you want any sort of choice in the work you do, and finding work without a degree is becoming increasingly impossible.
That's not exactly true though. No one I'm working with here has a degree, and yes this is high level IT work not fixing up a schools Network.
Alternatively, we don't have any technical staff working for us that don't have a uni degree in an IT field. At last count (now) 50% of the engineering and support departments are made up with people with a minimum of a Masters :p
Chaos.Lady , I think it sucks how, with all the hoopla about IT technology and how people can work from home, the actual implementer of the technology are limited to working in capital cities. Finding a software dev. role outside of a capital city is next to impossible. -----
Q6600 | 4Gb PC6400 | 2 x 500Gb RAID 0 | 19" + 24" + 19" | 8800GTS + 8400GS | Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3P | Antec P182 | Corsair HX-620 | Thermalright 120 Extreme | Vista x64
http://www.atomicf1.com
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Slace
2/11/07 9:11:14 AM
Titan
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The IT market in Australia seems to be very open at the moment. In the last month we've had 4 developers resign from where I'm working so we're in massive demand for new employee's of pretty much all skill levels.
I too have been browsing around to see what else is out there and there's a lot of jobs going in the online agencies, everything from part time to full time and with varying experience (I've seen some from grads all the way to 10+ years).
The need for a degree will really come down to the preference of the company.
Here where I work they are more interested in motivated people, people who really want to excel rather than just someone who's smart on paper. I've actually over heard discussions saying "Oh yeah we'll hire person X because they fit better into our company than just being the most awesome developer we interviewed".
That said, this company it probably in the lower end of the pay scale. The only reason I'd consider moving on from here would be the money, and money isn't a big issue for me at the moment so I'm content to stay.
When I started here 2 years ago I was a grad with no experience and on a fairly meager wage of 30k. I've had a few raises since then and am doing comfortably but I'm pretty sure I could get more elsewhere. -----
Why can't a programmer tell the difference between Halloween and Christmas?
Because OCT31 = DEC25
What's playing? http://www.last.fm/user/slace/
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kikz
2/11/07 9:15:42 AM
Immortal
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Quote by RaYdeX
There are a LOT of "Non Government" training courses and certifications to be gained. an MCSE (Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer) for instance, is a very very good cert to have. Courses can cost several thousand dollars, but it's almost a necessity to get into network/systems admin.
A cheap alternative is to buy the books from Amazon and study at your own pace.
MCSE: http://tinyurl.com/2c4xtq for US$108, which is somewhat better than the $20,000 or so it'll cost through a training centre :) -----
Q6600 | 4Gb PC6400 | 2 x 500Gb RAID 0 | 19" + 24" + 19" | 8800GTS + 8400GS | Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3P | Antec P182 | Corsair HX-620 | Thermalright 120 Extreme | Vista x64
http://www.atomicf1.com
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MrInsaneBuff
2/11/07 9:31:24 AM
Hero
Immortal
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Where i am currently as long as you are not a retard, and have decent customer service skills we will take you on. Its 1st lvl helpdesk.
We are generally bringing in 6-8 new people each month, as we have a high churn rate. Generally its more to do with working nights than anything else. Pay is reasonable, but could be better ( as always) for what we do.
I agree with what someone earlier said. Having a degree gives you options, its not how ever a Get a Job in IT card. If you are unable to communicate effectively, and are not some super genious you will find it hard to get a role.
The thing ive noticed of late is that a large emphasis is being placed on peoples ability to communicate effectivly with others, alot of the time those others are people who are not technical. Gone are the days where IT departments can slag off users and just do stuff when they feel like it. Because of this they need to be able to discuss with higher ups, and general users what it is thats happening, why its happening, and why it takes that ammount of time to complete.
You will be very hard pressed to find many places that will happily employ the majority of their IT staff with no formal qualifications. Not having a degree isnt such an inpediment if you have the specialised qulaification to go with your role. Though there is a point where its hard to go further without taking on a degree. Going above Team Leader with out a degree is becoming increasingly hard.
IT outside of capital cities is slim pickings. You will be going up against very qualified people constantly. Alot of the time the budget just inst there to employ the level of staff necessary to do the job properly, so they employ someone who can do the most of everything they need.
Starting pay is the one thing that varies not only from company to company, but also day to day. The only thing i can say though is, it really comes down to what you can actually do. Alot of the time graduates are considered just one step up from non graduates. All they have proved is that thery didnt manage to get thrown out for drinking too much. But any monkey can do that. Sometimes people with specialised courses under their belt (eg CCNA, MCSE, blah blah) will be given a better starting rate than a graduate. But they can also find themselves pigion holed because of those same specialised qualifications.
Id say its no more easier, or harder than it has been for the last 12 months to get a job in IT. Its always been easy in certian area's, and in others its always been a bitch. -----
Well. Id love to stay...But you bore me.
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1bolHungLo
2/11/07 9:50:02 AM
Immortal
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Just how easy is it to get a job in IT?
depends on what field you are trying to get into.
What can the average TAFE or uni IT grad expect in terms of pay, the sort of work they can get, etc?
depends on what field you are trying to get into. and dont go expecting that whoever did uni will get more as compared to a tafe student.
Is it possible to get a job without any qualifications?
not exactly know what you mean by this. but i never went to uni. i did a tafe diploma and i work in networking. i dont have any cisco or microsoft certification. is that what you mean?
Are there any extra qualifications (i.e. CISCO) that can really help -- or are possibly required -- you get a job?
paper work is what keeps you inside once you get through the door. you will need some experience to get your foot in the door. -----
Body like a popstar, face like a rockstar. -Me
"But the speed difference is something only the most anal-retentive performance freaks would notice... " donutking
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Gharphield
2/11/07 10:05:31 AM
Mod
Hero
Immortal
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Quote by Chaos.Lady
Quote by Gharphield
Quote by Chaos.Lady
IT has become very centralised into the major cities. Trying to get a job in IT is almost impossible unless you live in or near a major centre (ie large city). Telecommuting is still not as widespread as it should be.
As has been said, degrees are required if you want any sort of choice in the work you do, and finding work without a degree is becoming increasingly impossible.
That's not exactly true though. No one I'm working with here has a degree, and yes this is high level IT work not fixing up a schools Network.
Then you are quite lucky. I didn't say it was impossible yet, just that it's becoming increasingly impossible.
And it also depends very much on what you do. Support is easier, project and other managment extremely difficult. Programming next to impossible. Web development difficult, database admin extremely difficult.
Sorry I'm not picking on you but I think you're very wrong in this reards.
Many years ago this may have been the case, and to say I'm lucky as well as the team of 20 that I work with are lucky isn't exactly true.
I've worked with 1 guy who had a double degree ... he was ok, nothing special. But 1 guy out of the 30 or so that have been through here is a small percentage.
IMO it seems that more and more places are valuing other qualities over a piece of paper. Now don't get me wrong that piece of paper can help you out immensly but I still think that it's becoming less and less important, and I don't consider myself lucky that I'm doing 3rd level support now, I consider it a result of hard work. -----
Wakka wakka wakka wakka *FRUIT*
Lex Talionis
I'm not being aggressive, I'm just being dominant.
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TinBane
2/11/07 10:13:57 AM
Mod
Hero
Immortal
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I studied science at uni, majoring in biochemistry and genetics, and now I'm working in IT.
To be fair, I did a lot of bioinformatics, but I still don't have an IT qualification.
It was enough to get me an interview, which I blitzed. I'm working for a small company doing tech work, getting my apple qualifications, repairing iPods, installing/setting up networks, troubleshooting and a wide range of other jobs.
I'm actually having so much fun, I'm starting to question whether I will go back and do my PhD. -----
absit iniuria verbis
Eli Roth & Quentin Tarantino - "[Nick Frost is] the funniest man on earth."
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spyder
2/11/07 10:23:36 AM
SuperHero
Immortal
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I never went to Uni. Highest qualification level I got was an Advanced Certififcate in Electronics from TAFE.
But I have managed to get to the Support Program Manager for a multinational IT company. It involves technical training and technical support for a very specific range of retail digital photography products. Basically, between myself and another guy in Sydney, we are the technical bible for these products for all of AUS and NZ.
This really came about from being very active in IT in all areas. Teaching myself through experience. Staying up to date with the latest hardware and software developments.
You can get quite far in IT without formal qualifications, so long as you build your realworld experience set up to be as strong (or stronger) than other people who do have formal quals.
Edited by spyder: 2/11/2007 10:25:02 AM -----
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zephyr
2/11/07 10:24:30 AM
Hero
Titan
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Quote by Gharphield
Many years ago this may have been the case, and to say I'm lucky as well as the team of 20 that I work with are lucky isn't exactly true.
And I can point to plenty of places where you'll find 20 software developers with at least 20 degrees between them. It is going to vary depending on what role you're talking about!
I've worked with 1 guy who had a double degree ... he was ok, nothing special. But 1 guy out of the 30 or so that have been through here is a small percentage.
If you're talking about support roles, I dunno how to break it to you, but most people don't study 3-5 years and aspire to go into a support position. :-)
Generally it's those who scrape through the degree and aren't cut out for grad positions that end up in those roles. Note, I said "generally".
IMO it seems that more and more places are valuing other qualities over a piece of paper.
I think there are a lot of other qualities that can amount to more than just your paper qualifications too. It's kind of like the "100 point ID check" where certain forms of ID are worth more than others. Each employer is going to have their own set of rankings in terms of qualifications, people skills, plays well with others, etc that will determine how they fit the role.
Now don't get me wrong that piece of paper can help you out immensly but I still think that it's becoming less and less important, and I don't consider myself lucky that I'm doing 3rd level support now, I consider it a result of hard work.
In IT, it's hard to say that a degree is less important, considering we've only had them for a generation really.
It's like back in the days when doctors were starting to emerge, I'm sure there were plenty of barber-surgeons running around saying "you don't need to study at university to do what we do" and that was true if you counted "what we do" as sawing off limbs that don't work any more.
These days you don't pop down to the barber for "a short back and sides and can you please amputate this gangrenous leg for me?"
As the IT industry matures, there's going to be a more of a divergence between which roles do need degrees, and which ones don't. These kind of arguments will run back and forwards forever when everyone has their own definition of what "IT" is :-) -----
"It is better to be silent, and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt." (Confuscius)
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