Catmosphere
11/5/07 01:13:38 AM
Overlord
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Virtual scum I guess. I've been waiting for this to happen actually. Ever since murder in MUDs this has been on the cards. Pedophilia appears to be where people draw the line. But should it be further back? You hear reports of people suing theives in Second Life, etc. This is a different type of crime.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/technology/virtual-pedophile-paradise/2007/05/09/1178390442491.html
Brave new world or virtual pedophile paradise?
Chris Johnston
May 10, 2007
WHEN is child pornography not child pornography? Can an "avatar" commit a crime? What is real, and what is not?
These are questions being asked amid an emerging under-age sex case in online computer game Second Life.
Second Life is an internet-based virtual world with 6 million players worldwide — including about 5000 in Australia — in which players custom build a representation of themselves (an "avatar") by choosing looks, age, gender and colour. Second Life players can earn real money by buying land, earning rent and selling goods. Mostly it is good, clean fun. But like real life, sex is popular.
Now German prosecutors are trying to find players who reportedly bought virtual sex with other players, who were posing as children. A pornography investigation has ensued.
In Germany, "virtual" child pornography is illegal and punishable by up to five years in jail. In the US it is not a crime. In Australia it is somewhere between the two and is largely untested.
"This is a constant grey zone," said Monash University new media lecturer Brett Hitchins. Law was dictated by the country or the state but the internet was neither and there was no internet-specific law. "Like everybody, I think child porn is abhorrent," Mr Hitchins said. "But is this a real thing going on, or a fantasy? And if it's a fantasy, could it encourage or permit something real?"
There are adult and "teen" areas in Second Life but they are impossible to monitor. Some players dress up as children with no sexual motivation. But so-called "age play", in which players can enact fantasies with child avatars, has encouraged a growth in players posing as children in order to make money.
In Victoria, under section 67A of the Victorian Crimes Act, a person who engages in virtual sex with a child avatar or who deals in virtual child porn could be successfully prosecuted, lawyers said.
The act does not mention the internet or virtual reality, but does include imagery in computer games that "describes or depicts a person who is, or appears to be, a minor engaging in sexual activity or depicted in an indecent sexual manner or context".
It is illegal to publish such images, and a game such as Second Life could be deemed to be a "publication", said Connor O'Brien, the chairman of the Law Institute of Victoria's criminal law section.
"If you have two adults and one is pretending to be a child and there is sexual activity then I would say guilty," he said. "It doesn't have to be a real child. I think being a virtual child would be enough."
Melbourne criminal lawyer Stella Stuthridge will later this year defend a Victorian man who she said faced similarly unusual child pornography charges. The man, from country Victoria, allegedly manipulated images — both cartoon and real — in a children's website. When his computer was repaired the evidence allegedly was found. Users of the website were mainly British children.
Ms Stuthridge said one of the difficulties of the case was its nebulous location.
"Where, exactly, did the alleged offence occur?" she said. "The law is in a constant battle to keep up with technological advances."
The Second Life case was revealed by a German investigative reporter.
San Francisco company Linden Lab, which runs the game, has said it will help police.
- with Guardian
-----
No amount of time can erase the memory of a good cat. And no amount of masking tape can ever totally remove his fur from your couch.
http://arch.har-ikkje.net/gfx/illfixit.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjA648yMDsM (found by 800_series)
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orcone
11/5/07 01:19:49 AM
Guru
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What the fuck. -----
Australia is not special because some doofus cartographer decided that "continent" sounds better than "huge fucking island".
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mozza
11/5/07 01:29:33 AM
Titan
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Just went the the website:
http://secondlife.com/
They have an under 18 version here too:
http://teen.secondlife.com/
Intersting. -----
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v366/mozzarelli/jesus-loves-u.gif
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freespace
11/5/07 01:35:20 AM
Hero
Titan
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While the behaviour is annoying, ppl are over-reacting. Don't like it? Log out. Unlike real life crimes, there is no "over powering". Ultimately you are in control of what you get over your connection.
If you are convicted of a virtual crime, then you should go to a virtual prison.
-----
By perseverance the snail reached the ark.
http://www.shuningbian.net - blog
http://www.dailydiscovery.org - something new every day
its f reespace damn it!
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thetap
11/5/07 01:38:28 AM
Hero
Immortal
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So there's two consenting adults - one roleplaying a child - having cyber sex.
I dunno about this. On the one hand you've got pedophiles getting their rocks off and both parties being happy. There's no victim there.
But then, you've got pedophiles indulging their pedophile desires. Does that drive them onto more 'real life' targets, or satisfy their urges?
Catholic priests would suggest the former, but does anybody know? I also don't like the law charging someone for potential future wrong-doing in any case.
1984? -----
'Pile on many more layers / And I'll be joining you there'
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freespace
11/5/07 01:43:19 AM
Hero
Titan
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Hey, should we ban video games cause potentially violent ppl are acting on their aggressive urges? How about books? Plenty of books about crime, murders etc, and I am sure plenty of people who read them have in their heads acted out the scenarios with themselves as the main character.
So what? What a person do to satisify their urges in private, by themselves or with other consenting adults is their business. In the case of second life, if you don't like what some one is doing, then go somewhere else - they have no power over you. -----
By perseverance the snail reached the ark.
http://www.shuningbian.net - blog
http://www.dailydiscovery.org - something new every day
its f reespace damn it!
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Catmosphere
11/5/07 01:43:56 AM
Overlord
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I think it's the actual visual images though thetap.
So the article refers to cartoons also being punishable.
But yes, I would like to see a clearer definition of what is being charged here. -----
No amount of time can erase the memory of a good cat. And no amount of masking tape can ever totally remove his fur from your couch.
http://arch.har-ikkje.net/gfx/illfixit.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjA648yMDsM (found by 800_series)
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Catmosphere
11/5/07 01:45:22 AM
Overlord
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Quote by freespace
Hey, should we ban video games cause potentially violent ppl are acting on their aggressive urges?
yep - virtual murder versus virtual pedophilia - one image is acceptable the other is not.
why?
I'm not defending, just trying to think it through. -----
No amount of time can erase the memory of a good cat. And no amount of masking tape can ever totally remove his fur from your couch.
http://arch.har-ikkje.net/gfx/illfixit.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjA648yMDsM (found by 800_series)
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Taranthor
11/5/07 01:48:10 AM
Guru
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Hrmm this is a pretty tough one... I mean... the kinds of anime porn you can get would most likely be bordering on illegal most of the time. Can you really convict someone of doing something that doesn't really exist though? -----
“Remember, people will judge you by your actions, not your intentions. You may have a heart of gold -- but so does a hard-boiled egg.”
Unknown source
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thetap
11/5/07 01:49:47 AM
Hero
Immortal
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You 4chan guys are gonna be in real trouble if they bring out the Thought Police. -----
'Pile on many more layers / And I'll be joining you there'
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YPE
11/5/07 01:50:03 AM
Apprentice
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I really don't like either side to this argument.
I think I'll just trial Second Life anyway. -----
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freespace
11/5/07 01:50:52 AM
Hero
Titan
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Because one is more understandable, and one isn't, for most people. Most people can see themselves, or others killing other people - some would say its natural. Pedophillia isn't exactly natural, so its harder to understand.
What do people fear? What they don't understand. -----
By perseverance the snail reached the ark.
http://www.shuningbian.net - blog
http://www.dailydiscovery.org - something new every day
its f reespace damn it!
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thetap
11/5/07 01:55:11 AM
Hero
Immortal
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That's true. I don't see myself being a pedophile. Those tapes got erased after the first trial. -----
'Pile on many more layers / And I'll be joining you there'
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freespace
11/5/07 01:59:26 AM
Hero
Titan
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Whether or not its "natural" or "good" or "sane" as long as they keep their urges under control, and do not actually harm a child, I am happy to let them be.
The ability to control our urges, instincts, etc, is what makes us more than animals. To treat some one with the assumption they can not control their urges is to treat them not as human beings but as animals.
Some would argue it serves them right, for having "unholy" urges. But I for one am not comfortable enough with my own moral authroity nor arrogant enough to think I know better.
Rememeber - innocent until proven. These days we are slipping into guilty until proven far too easily. -----
By perseverance the snail reached the ark.
http://www.shuningbian.net - blog
http://www.dailydiscovery.org - something new every day
its f reespace damn it!
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Catmosphere
11/5/07 02:03:22 AM
Overlord
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freespace I think it's the actual images they are objecting to - not the acting out (although that's not really seperable).
as the article says though - there is no victim here.
ie there is no real child.
so it's not really pedophilic porn?
i think i'm starting to think more like thetap (and that's a scary thought...) -----
No amount of time can erase the memory of a good cat. And no amount of masking tape can ever totally remove his fur from your couch.
http://arch.har-ikkje.net/gfx/illfixit.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjA648yMDsM (found by 800_series)
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freespace
11/5/07 02:05:44 AM
Hero
Titan
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If there is no child, whats the problem? Are we saying adults can't look at whatever images they like?
The problem with child pornography isn't the pictures, its the fact children are being exploited sexually. If there is no minors, then leave them alone. -----
By perseverance the snail reached the ark.
http://www.shuningbian.net - blog
http://www.dailydiscovery.org - something new every day
its f reespace damn it!
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mobon
11/5/07 02:08:47 AM
Champion
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whats next people being convicted of virtual murder on css? -----
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g0t.w00t?
11/5/07 02:10:07 AM
Guru
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i can sorta see what the problem is, as the pedos are looking at representations of children engaged in sex.
but the internet veteran in me says "meh, its just loli, no need to patyvan them" -----
2700+ @ stock
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Cynic*
11/5/07 02:12:33 AM
Banned
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Quote by freespace
Because one is more understandable, and one isn't, for most people. Most people can see themselves, or others killing other people - some would say its natural. Pedophillia isn't exactly natural, so its harder to understand.
What do people fear? What they don't understand.
The fact that paedophilia has existed throughout the ages points to the fact that it is natural. Same deal for murder, though. Murder is similar - it's completely natural, much more natural in fact, but the act is abhorrent. We stop humans doing what comes naturally because humans are evil.
I have absolutely no idea whether age-play would have a "slippery-slope" effect, whereby someone indulging in fairly sketchy fantasies would end up molesting children. If this is the case, then I support the ruling. But I do know that there's often an element of age-play in normal sex play. "Tarts and vicars", "schoolgirls and teachers" - role-playing in this vein is a well-frequented part of our sexual culture. Some distinction has to be drawn, there has to be a line in the sand somewhere regarding what constitutes healthy fantasy.
Edited by Cynic*: 11/5/2007 2:13:46 AM -----
"These people aren't insecure, they're content with being vapid commercial billboards."
- Sno-Pea
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mp3metalhead
11/5/07 02:23:37 AM
Guru
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its not real ... who cares? -----
d-_-b "the unforgiven" d-_-b
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